Finding Balance with Jenelle Manzi

[01:12] Jennifer Milner: Welcome back to the Bendy Bodies Podcast, where we speak with experts bringing you state-of-the-art information to help you improve your well-being, enhance your performance, and optimize career longevity. This is co-host Jennifer Milner here with the Hypermobility MD, Dr. Linda Bluestein.

[01:27] Dr. Linda Bluestein: We are so glad you are here to learn tips to live your best bendy life. This information is for educational purposes only and is not a substitute for medical advice.

[01:36] Jennifer Milner: I'm Jennifer Milner, a former professional ballet and Broadway dancer, and I struggled my whole career with hypermobility-related issues and injuries. Now I train dancers and want to make sure the next generation of hypermobile artists are better equipped to work to their fullest potential.

[01:52] Dr. Linda Bluestein: I'm Dr. Linda Bluestein, and I started Bendy Bodies to educate the hypermobile community. Despite being a physician, I experienced decades of symptoms before being finally diagnosed with hypermobile EDS. I've combined my medical education and personal experience to treat and coach patients and clients to optimize their quality of life.

[02:11] Jennifer Milner: Our guest today is Jenelle Manzi, professional ballet dancer with New York City Ballet, founder of Get Golden, and EDS warrior. Hello, Jenelle, and welcome to Bendy Bodies.

[02:19] Jenelle Manzi: Hello. Thank you for having me. I'm truly honored to be here.

[02:25] Jennifer Milner: We are very excited to have you here. So before we dig into what we want to talk to you about, can you tell us a bit about who you are?

[02:34] Jenelle Manzi: I'm Jenelle, and I am a ballerina with New York City Ballet. I'm in the corps de ballet, and I've struggled with EDS pretty much my entire career. And through that, I learned a lot of lessons that inspired me to build my food and wellness company, Get Golden.

[02:51] Jennifer Milner: And that's what we want to talk to you about today. That's like the one-sentence summary of what we're about to discuss for the next however many minutes — sort of what you went through with your career. So what was life for you growing up as you were aspiring to a professional ballet career? Injuries, instability, benefits, not benefits, all of that.

[03:18] Jenelle Manzi: I'm sure a lot of people that have EDS can relate to this sort of reflection. I didn't even really realize it until I was diagnosed, and until I had read several studies and books and listened to podcast interviews about people that had the same experience.
[03:34] So I clearly remember my mom always having to tell anyone that was playing with me that they couldn't grab my arms too quickly or pull me, because my shoulders would pop out, my elbows would dislocate, and I would have to go to the emergency room and have everything reset. And this would happen all the time. I mean, your grandparents would pick you up and swing you around like normal kids — that's what you do. And it would happen time and time again. And I didn't even really connect the two together until actually probably the last maybe 2 years — thought that that might have some sort of parallel.
[04:10] I always had issues with joints popping out of place and injury, just odd injuries and odd inflammatory responses. I would have a lot of allergic reactions. A mosquito would bite me and I would have to semi-end the family vacation because my calf would blow up like 4 times the size it previously was. And all of these things, looking back now, make total sense. But in the moment, as I was growing up, it was just kind of one of those things. My parents would say "bubble, bubble" because I was always kind of getting hurt. I was a little bit accident-prone and I was also fearless. I love to be active. I love to rollerblade and climb and bike ride, and I still do. But I definitely was super accident-prone.
[05:00] So looking back, all of those mostly joint instabilities and some allergic responses that were pretty extreme all kind of painted the picture for the rest of — I mean, where I am now. And of course in ballet especially, being flexible and having incredible range of motion can be very beneficial. But somewhere along the way, did you realize that your body was built differently from other dancers? And can you tell us about that?
[05:31] I think one of the most extreme things that I didn't even want to admit until I've realized why I used to do it — I remember being really, really tired standing for too long in class in a summer program, and I would need to sit down. I never understood why other people's hips weren't tired from just kind of standing in the back of the studio before they did the combinations. And it is because I think — this is my theory — that I have to work a little bit harder to keep my femurs and my legs stable just to even stand, because my femurs just pop out.
[06:01] And so I guess growing up at SAB, I mean, I loved my experience there and I didn't really understand how to create shapes. And I think that's where I really struggled. At SAB and in Balanchine technique, there is obviously a specific shape and a specific look that we're supposed to have. And I was able to contort my body to do it, but that did not mean that it was correct. And that works for so long. I had great flexibility, I had beautiful extension, and I cherish those things to this day. But I definitely struggled because I didn't even know what I didn't have.
[06:48] And I think that's the key that I've finally come to terms with and realized — it was a squareness and a stability that you don't even know how to turn those muscles on, or know that you don't have that neuromuscular connection, until you start to discover it. And it was impossible for me to find it because I didn't even know who to go to or how to do it. It's like you don't know what you don't know. And so I just thought everything I was doing was normal. Things were supposed to pop out, and you were supposed to click things like this so that it moves and gets into position, and that's just how it went.
[07:23] And to get into an arabesque, there were 50 million ways to do it. Someone says developpé side, and in your brain — which is a whole other thing — you have 500 options. Do I go this way? Do I go that route? Where I think someone that's not necessarily as hypermobile really only has — obviously there's a not-proper-ballet way to do something, but anatomically there's really only one physical way that they can go. And I think that's where I had so many different options but didn't even know that there was most likely supposed to be only one.
[08:00] So you just make it work. Any ballerina does that — it's in our blood. And so that's what I did for many, many years: made it work. And it did work. I mean, I'm grateful for getting to where I am and for SAB providing me with the training that I carry with me. But I definitely had to learn a lot as the years went on and as I became a professional.

[08:24] Jennifer Milner: Well, and that's something we hear a lot from dancers — from pre-professional dancers and newly professional dancers dealing with hypermobility. So many teachers love you because you can make these beautiful pictures, and so many dancers are people pleasers. That's just kind of what we grow up to do. We want to please those people in authority, and they say do this, and you're like, okay, and you do whatever it takes. And they're like, that's cool, can you do this? And you do these things and they're like, that's great. And then after a few years it's like, huh, this kind of hurts, or this doesn't feel right, or like you said, I'm not feeling any connection to this or that.
[09:10] So I think a lot of dancers with hypermobile disorders hit that point where they're the easy-to-work-with person to start with because they can create those pictures, and then they're the hard-to-work-with person because they're creating those pictures at a cost and starting to get injured and starting to say, I don't think I should do that, and having to take time out and that sort of thing. So I think there are lots of people that have had your experience.

[09:35] Jenelle Manzi: Yeah, I think also one more thing on that: I struggled to figure out how other people did it — and I mean students. I would feel frustrated with myself because as a student, you want to do the best you can for your teacher. And when you can't necessarily create those movements and create those exact shapes that they want, but you kind of can do it with your flexibility, that's where I felt so much inner frustration and confusion. And then that led to lack of confidence and all of those things, because you just wanted to be the best dancer. You wanted to listen to your teacher and do what she was saying, but you physically couldn't figure out how to do it because you don't even know how to make it happen.
[10:18] And yeah, you deal with a little bit of a comparison issue too, which I know isn't healthy, but when you're younger, you don't know any better. I think that's a huge key right there — when you're a younger dancer, you don't know any better. You just, like you said, you just make it happen. And over time you have to kind of figure out other ways to do things as maybe things get harder or things start to hurt.
[10:44] Was there a time when you felt like maybe you would need to stop dancing for a while and kind of work on your health? And if so, how was that?
[10:54] I think several times. So my first serious injury in the company was my second going on third year, and I had been dealing with 2 osteogonums that had broken off and they had been irritating and then tore my tendon. And I was very young, naive, eager to get back on the stage — perhaps too eager. And I had chosen to do the quick fix of getting cortisone injections. And I think by nature it weakened the tendon more. And then I ended up back at square one a year later, just being in a boot cast and getting cortisone injections with the same exact pain and same exact swelling, with a torn tendon instead of just osteogonums.
[11:32] And so at that point, I had exploratory surgery to repair the tendon that they figured out was torn, and to remove the osteogonums. And that kicked off the worst time in my whole life. I mean, I was learning how to walk in a pool. I was dealing with food sensitivities all of a sudden, very slow to heal. And this was the pattern that we — and by we, I mean my physical therapist and doctor — started to realize: how much slower to heal I was than a lot of other people.
[12:04] And when you're young and you're excited about dancing with your dream company, I felt pathetic. You feel like your body's failing you. You don't understand why you're so inflamed in certain areas, why it's not healing the same as other people. And it was really tough. So I think that was the first time, my first big injury, where I felt like during the recovery I would sit on the table and just wonder, is it all worth it? Being so frustrated, wondering what am I doing?
[12:37] I can count — I probably need two hands for the total number of times I've felt that way.

[12:47] Jennifer Milner: Hold on, because before you go deeper into that, I just want to sketch out a timeline really quick. I'd love to know at what point in your career you were diagnosed with EDS. Like, there was that moment where you were like, oh, so I have this thing. Was it before these injuries started happening? Was it after? How did that happen?

[13:08] Jenelle Manzi: So around 2010, I started to hear the words, or they started to register: "Jenelle's extremely hypermobile." "Extremely hypermobile." I didn't even know what that meant. I just thought it meant I was flexible. And I started seeing a Pilates instructor, Marimba, who's also been on the podcast.

[13:31] Jennifer Milner: Shout out to Marimba. I love that girl so much.

[13:35] Jenelle Manzi: She changed my life. And she taught me a lot about hypermobility through both her own experience and explaining it and guiding me to some of the doctors that she had seen, and I kind of took a lot of those tools and expanded upon them and learned more and got really just intrigued and curious about EDS and what it was and whether I had it. And I would say in 2015 was when I officially went and got diagnosed. And then most recently, this past summer, I went and got — I don't know what you would call it — re-diagnosed, just to make sure.

Jennifer Milner: Reassessed.

[14:14] Jenelle Manzi: I guess reassessed, yes. Because I had had yet another injury. So I always wonder about this — whether sometimes you just need, I think we all in times of frustration and darkness, to be really frank, we need an answer. You want something to hold on to. You need hope. We all need an answer to even just get out of that hole. And I was really frustrated this past summer with a fracture that I have now gotten twice. And you just need an answer.
[15:01] So yes, my first official diagnosis was in 2015. And that pretty much helped me understand a little bit more about at least being hypermobile. And like I said, that kicked off me then researching more about nutrition and seeing a holistic nutritionist — you name the healer, I went to them. And I feel like they taught me so much and also inspired me to continue my studies and to continue ordering this book and that book and reading, and even studies in various journals about what was happening in the space and listening to other people's experiences.
[15:41] And I discovered your podcast. And in those moments, you feel like your entire life, you can finally relate to people and you feel heard and you feel like your experiences — and it sounds wacky to say this out loud — but are valid. And I look back at the little girl in me and just feel so bad for her and sorry, because I was so mad at myself, at my body, at what was happening. And there comes a point in this journey with hypermobility syndrome where you just have to accept that this is your reality and this is what it is, and you have to make the best of it.

[16:31] Jennifer Milner: Well, I see people hit that point a lot. We watch people go through all the different stages of it. And I'm thinking about what you said earlier about how your parents were always joking about having to put Jenelle in her bubble. And it can feel so frustrating because you do feel like you're in a bubble. I can't spin around with someone holding my hands like everybody does. I can't sit on the floor comfortably like everybody does because my tailbone moves. I can't do this, I can't do that. And it gets so frustrating. And I know Dr. Bluestein feels the same way — we've been through this ourselves. We're like, why can't we just eat dairy like everyone else? It's not fair.
[17:12] But what you're talking about is learning how to thrive inside that bubble. And I think it's okay to acknowledge your limitations and then say, maybe the possibilities within those limitations aren't as limited as I think they are. Let's see how I can thrive within that bubble — it's a stretchy bubble. Let's see how far we can push it. And one of the key things is what you did: gather that support team. And it sounds like you've been slowly gathering that support team as you've learned more and as you've gone further.
[17:47] So you talked about having those dark moments — I appreciate you acknowledging that because everybody goes through those dark moments where you're like, this is so freaking hard. Is it too hard? And did you hit a point, or have you hit more than one point, where you thought it's not worth it, I'm not coming back to dance when you were trying to get through these injuries?

[18:11] Jenelle Manzi: Yes and no. I think it never got so serious that I almost made it official, but I definitely had extremely low weeks during the time I was injured. But I love dance so much. And I think that through personal reflection and really listening to what I wanted — and I would do a lot of journaling too — you really have to outweigh the positives and the negatives. And I think I would put myself in this place where I would think about: I can let this win, or I can let my heart win. And my heart and my passion and my work ethic, until it's not possible, will conquer this. And until it's not possible, I'm not backing down.
[19:00] And I wrote out recently for an interview — one that I'm really excited about — about one of the qualities of being a ballet dancer and how it helps me as a founder now. And I think one of the words that's very important is resilience. Anyone that has this condition has to be so resilient. And it's just so beautiful to see someone go through hardship and work through the many steps and loopholes and bumps to get back to a place where — and each time, I truly believe each time you're stronger. You're a better artist, a better dancer, a better person, a smarter person.
[19:44] I had a really wise teacher a few years ago, before the pandemic: Christine Wright. She's now based in Canada.

[19:51] Jennifer Milner: I love Christine. I used to take her class. I miss it so much.

[19:55] Jenelle Manzi: City Center. Marimba told me to go to her, and she taught me a lot. And it's funny thinking back — she was really helping me with my hypermobility, but I didn't even know it then. And she said to me, "You don't want to be the best dancer in the room. You want to be the smartest dancer in the room." And that sentence stuck with me for the rest of my career.
[20:14] And in those moments of frustration — when you couldn't do it for the 50th time in rehearsal, or you felt something else pull, and your mind is already going there — it was automatically: no, you do not need to talk negatively to yourself. You need to be smart. You need to approach this wisely. And you want to be the smartest dancer in the room for you. That doesn't mean comparison. That means the smartest dancer for you.
[20:42] And I say that to myself constantly to this day.
[20:42] I think that's really brilliant. And I really like that you brought up resilience, because I think a lot of my colleagues don't realize that people with EDS are the most resilient people there are, because they have to cope with so much. And instead of thinking, oh my gosh, you must be crazy or lazy because you're reporting all these different things — it's like, no, I'm actually incredibly resilient because I've got all these things going on yet I'm still standing. I'm still here.
People without EDS — connective tissue typicals, or whatever we want to call them — oftentimes don't really have to deal with too many health challenges. And then when they do, they often don't cope with it as well. We are often pretty resilient and adaptable, and we just keep going, amazingly enough.
[21:37] Yeah, I think we're all meant to live a beautiful life, and I think we're all dealt different cards. And you have to — or at least for me, I really had to figure out: how do I create beauty from this? How do I live a beautiful and joyful life if this is the situation?
[21:58] You can go on living, being depressed and feeling defeated and feeling mad. And what a life — what for? And of course, if you were to add it all up, I probably spent a year, maybe more, being mad, hating everything, being so frustrated. And finally, you just have to pick yourself up and say: do I really want to live my life like this? Do I want to be miserable every single day and hate my body that I was born with? So I really think it's just important to find light in order to live a beautiful life.

[22:30] Jennifer Milner: I think that's great. A lot of it can come down to your attitude, like you've said — the way that you approach everything. But you've done a fair amount of study as well and a fair amount of putting your own work into it, gathering your team, learning about all the other things. One of the last things to fall in place for many people is their health through what they eat and how they eat and how that can impact their hypermobility.
[22:52] And it sounds like you've done a fair amount of research on that through your own health journey, and I believe that was sort of the inspiration to start your own company, Get Golden. Can you describe how food played a role in your issues and how you found a way to balance nutrition and exercise in a healthy way?

[23:17] Jenelle Manzi: Yes. After my first serious injury, I developed quite a number of food sensitivities. And it was through seeing different doctors and holistic nutritionists and learning more — this was before the gut-brain connection and gut microbiome were widely known. I mean, I think we're all a little bit more familiar now with the studies and where things are going in terms of how we can best support our bodies. But at the time, I was fascinated by the idea that trauma, or stress, or just any sort of imbalance of the gut microbiome could — and obviously there's still research being done here on a continuous basis — kick off a slew of responses. I had spent my entire life having allergic responses to certain things, but never having food sensitivities or allergies. And then all of a sudden I had this huge injury and it kicked off a whole range of food sensitivities.
[24:12] And so I was really frustrated, to be honest. I couldn't eat a lot of things. I couldn't eat dairy, I couldn't eat gluten, I couldn't eat high-histamine foods. Fermented foods, avocado, and bananas made me break out and my lips would swell. It was bizarre and frustrating. I'm Italian. I love to cook. Dinner is a huge priority in my family. My dad asks the question — I think I mentioned this in another feature one time — at 7:00 AM, maybe earlier, my dad says, "What's for dinner?" It's top priority. And not being able to eat any of the foods I love, I was really frustrated.
[24:48] And so I started to make all these different snacks and bites and obviously meals too with the ingredients that I could. I think it was probably through one of my injuries where I was recovering and had more free time — I was taking classes at Fordham, going to PT, and taking on new passions. And one of those was creating fuel for my body that also healed it. It was through playing around with different adaptogens and medicinal mushrooms. This was when all of that wasn't so buzzy either — this was probably more than 10 years ago at this point.
[25:24] And I started a blog and I started sharing my recipes and my photos — that weren't even that good, but we can say they were because I like photography too. And I really love to share. I love to share what I was going through and bringing my treats and my snacks to my friends because it gave me a sense of community. It gave me a sense of connection, wanting to share what I was working on and what I was doing. And it was through all of that that I built the inspiration for my company.
[25:47] I was also just learning along the way. I would say each year I would learn more about my own body and healing my own body. And I now have very few food sensitivities. I avoid gluten during season just because I feel a little bit less swollen joint-wise. And any amount of swelling, you just cut it during season especially. But I've healed a lot of my food sensitivities through healing my body.
[26:26] And I think there is no one way to heal the body. It's a constant process. And I couldn't even explain exactly how I did it, other than through work and really listening to both doctors and myself and the responses I would get. But I gained this level of both frustration and understanding for the need of balance. And I think I would roll my eyes — and still sometimes roll my eyes — at that statement, because you tell someone who is celiac or can't eat dairy, "Oh, live a little, life is about balance." But that's not always the reality. And I think we really need to take each person's situation, each phase of life, and each phase of where your body is at a given time, and really assess: what can my body handle, what can't it handle.
[27:16] And back to my point before: make light of it, make it joyful, make it fun. My company is about finding balance — the balance between health and taste. At the time I started, the gluten-free aisle was in the back of the grocery store and no one could find it. It was a little bit hard to find gluten-free snacks. And so I wanted to create a space and a company that helped people find balance in order to live a healthful and active life.

[27:51] Jennifer Milner: Well, I think that's such an important point. First of all, you made so many good points right off the bat. There is no one right way to do everything, no one right path to healing or treating your issues. Everybody's path is going to be a little bit different. And that's why it's so important to have a support team around you that can help you figure out what is right for you. What may be right for you may not be right for the next person who is diagnosed with EDS.
[28:22] But the second point that you made about finding balance is so important as well. And I can't help but wonder what your journey would have looked like, or how much longer it might have taken to reach that sweet spot, if you hadn't had something else to pour into. You found this idea of cooking and sharing and photography and had this passion that you could feed and find joy with while you were still recovering from your injury.
[28:48] And so many times the people that we talk to say it's so important to have an identity outside of dance, or skating, or whatever it is that they do. So I think that too is part of finding balance — that you have an identity now outside of "I'm a dancer." You have so much more to you than that. What do you think about that?

[29:12] Jenelle Manzi: Did you see me nodding?

[29:14] Jennifer Milner: I can hear your head.

[29:15] Jenelle Manzi: I'm officially rocking and nodding. I'm a huge proponent of a ballet dancer having a passion, a life, and an identity outside of ballet. And I want to say I learned the hard way. I think many dancers do at some point in their career. We train our whole lives to do this one art. We start at a very young age. It takes a lot of discipline and a lot of sacrifice. And in that, you lose out or miss out on different opportunities that you would normally have as a college student — where you have different hobbies and different groups of friends that might not be dancers.
[29:54] And I think when your ballerina identity is stripped from you by, say, an injury or an illness, you really have to think about what else you have. And for me — because I don't want to compare myself to anyone else — I definitely had lots of friends outside of the ballet world, but I think I could have had more passions as a young dancer. Or maybe it happened at the right time. Sometimes I think everything is a blessing.
[30:28] Simon Sinek talks about the finite mindset. And in ballet, you think: once you achieve something great, once you achieve your dream — I got into New York City Ballet, I told my grandmother I wanted to dance at New York City Ballet when I was 4, and I don't know how but it happened — and when you have that euphoric feeling of achieving your dream and then it's stripped from you, there is nothing worse than that feeling. And in order to balance that out, you have to have an identity outside of the industry, outside of ballet, to make you a fulfilled, whole person, to live — back to my point — a beautiful, joyful life.
[31:06] And I also have to admit to myself that this career isn't forever. And maybe it depends on what path you want to take, but some people don't want to teach ballet after their career is over. Some people do want to have another career in a completely different industry. And it's so important to make those connections, to even just tap into a different way of using your brain and your body.
[31:31] And I also think about your own confidence toolkit, and showing up in the studio. Ballet is hard. It's a life in front of a mirror. It's a life in front of your colleagues, in front of an audience. It's tough. And we have this inner voice in our head saying, you need to turn out more, you need to point your foot. And I think that starts to weigh on you a little bit. And I think having confidence in yourself in a different industry, in a different way of applying yourself, is extremely important — it was for me.
[32:09] I gained a whole new identity. I think back to myself as a young dancer training, and I had zero confidence. I was the one in the back, by the door. Don't look at me, do not look. And it was through the injuries and studying and applying myself to different things — I showed up at everything. You name the free food event, I went to it. Founder event, went to it. Capital-raising structure event, went to that. And it was through all of that that I built out this new toolkit. It made me feel really excited and enlightened and passionate about something else outside of ballet.
[32:57] And obviously when you're in it — I mean, I'm mid-season right now — ballet does feel consuming. And I would be lying if that didn't sometimes feel like a reality, where you really do have to plug in and understand what exactly are the needs to make these rehearsals happen, to make the show happen. It does require a lot of dedication. But knowing that that other side of you is there, it's just comforting and it makes you whole.
And back to the reality: that ballet identity can be stripped from you at any moment. You can fall, you can get injured, you can get sick, you need to retire. It's a reality, and it's really important to set yourself up for living a joyful life on your terms once that identity doesn't necessarily exist in the way that you want it to.
[33:55] I love the idea of the confidence toolkit. When I'm working with a client or a patient, I often talk about toolkits for pain management, managing injuries, or whatever. But I haven't really thought of a confidence toolkit before. And you're right — in ballet especially, we're constantly being told you're never perfect, there's always more. Give me more of this, give me more of that. Yeah, every once in a while you might get thrown a compliment, but for the most part your notes are going to be corrections. So I think that's really, really good. And I think that's something especially important for young dancers to hear.
Yeah, I wish — well, luckily I had a very serious injury very early on in my career, which was actually a blessing. But for young dancers, it is important because I think it'll set them up for a much happier life, happier career.

[34:54] Jennifer Milner: Yeah. And a lot of dancers — a lot of people, really — wanted to know from you how you found that sweet spot of staying at an elite level of performance, or coming back to an elite level of performance, because obviously it sounds like it's really been a seesaw for you where you've had an injury, been out, and then come back.
How have you been able to do that and take care of your health? And I know you've talked about this in a couple of major publications recently — I think you were interviewed for both Self magazine and the Wall Street Journal, right? Pretty amazing — about yourself, your health, and also your company Get Golden. But I think a lot of people, and younger dancers especially, would really like to know: how does she do it, what are the secrets? And everyone's body's different, obviously, but we would love to hear how you figured that out.

[35:51] Jenelle Manzi: This is a complicated answer, but I think we go through waves and phases in our lives. And I know I may be speaking to younger dancers, so these phases are probably just beginning. But there are times where you simply have to plug in. And that means listing out: what are my priorities, what do I need to accomplish? The list can go from one extreme to the other — getting back on stage, getting back into the studio, being able to do a specific set of physical therapy exercises.
[36:24] But I think when you have those specific types of goals — because if your goal is to get back on stage performing, you really need to be realistic with yourself and figure out for your own body what are the things that I need to do in order to accomplish this. And you have to be really honest with yourself. And this is where obviously seeing your healers and your team of people to help is so important, because we can't do this on our own.
[36:53] But for me, it's always about finding balance. I mean, it's going to come up constantly — finding balance in being a bit regimented. And I hate that word. Maybe consistent is better. I think regimented feels a bit rigid. Consistency is a much better way to put it, where you need to go back to that list of what you need to do in order to achieve what you want. And it might not be fun. Coming back from an injury is not necessarily fun. I mean, you're jumping in a pool, you're learning how to walk, you're trying to do these calf raises 50 million times.

[37:41] Jennifer Milner: Oh my. Sounds like my dancers. More calf raises.

[37:45] Jenelle Manzi: But if that's what you want — a lot of things don't just ta-da appear. It does take work. And I would say that I go through phases where I have to take a step back, reassess, and figure out: what are my priorities at this given time in this phase, and what are the steps and things that I need to do in order to make that happen? And then how do I balance that out and fill in those gaps with balance, with joy, with things that I'm passionate about?
[38:16] So I definitely have a list of things — and I'm happy to list them out — a list of things that I know, especially right now, make me feel like my strongest and best dancer. And that list has also helped me recover, and it has changed over the years because we all change, we get older, we grow, we get stronger in some areas, we get weaker in others. And it really is about just checking in with yourself at a given time and being honest.

[38:42] Jennifer Milner: Being honest is very important. And even as you said, your list changes over time. And that's important too — what worked for you 5 years ago may not be what works now. Your body circumstances might be different. Your life circumstances might be different.
[38:59] Before we started talking for the interview, we were talking about your evening schedule and how that may or may not affect how you feel. And I think that's really important for other people to hear too. So however much control you have over your schedule, how does that help you with recovery, with rest, and that sort of thing?

[39:19] Jenelle Manzi: I would say that I've learned a lot about recovery time, about how long my particular body needs to rest, and how much I can push my body. And this is all very individual. So the amount of times your friend can rehearse a specific ballet, the amount of times your friend can do the jumping combination, is not the same as you. And that's a lot harder when you're a student, where you are trying to train and prove yourself — which is just a silly way to look at it.
[39:53] And I learned a lot about timing. Mostly I was bringing this up before: I have noticed that when you get out of a show very late at night, you feel much different the following morning than if you hadn't had the show, even if you had danced the same amount throughout the day. Let's say you had training class and then you rehearsed until 7:00 PM and the rep was actually harder than the show. But if you have the show until 10:30 and then you have to be back in the studio at 10:30 the following morning, that turnaround time and body recovery — it feels different. It really does.
[40:33] Maybe it doesn't affect other people. Maybe this is age. Maybe this is EDS. I'm not here to label anyone, even myself. I'm still figuring things out. But I can say from experience: I have noticed how much fresher my legs feel, how much less inflamed things are when I wake up in the morning when I'm not dancing every single night until 10, 10:15. Would I change it? No. Do I have the tools to help with the inflammation? Yes. Do I have to use them? Yes.
[41:02] And it's pretty remarkable, if you think about it, how that shift — it's only what, 3 or 4 hours? — wild that that affects the body so much, or at least mine.

[41:15] Jennifer Milner: Well, and we talk a lot about how rest and recovery are so important. And artists don't always have control over their schedules. So whatever control you do have, taking advantage of it — not going and pounding the pavement shopping or going out and partying with your friends after a show, giving yourself those times down when you can — is so important.
[41:33] And it seems like you've done a really good job figuring out what works for you at this point in life and finding that balance, like you keep saying. So I want you to write 2 letters or give out 2 sets of wisdom. What do you say to those younger ones who are starting to hit that wall, who are saying this is too hard, I don't know how I can do this anymore? And what do you want to say to your future self? So give us some advice backwards and forwards.

[42:07] Jenelle Manzi: I would say: trust the process. Back to our earlier conversation, we're all dealt different cards. Your body is not like mine. Mine's not like yours. Yours isn't like your friend's. And there are going to be moments that are really low and really frustrating. And you really have to be honest and look inward and figure out what will make me feel like my best self. And sometimes that's rest. Sometimes that's working harder. Sometimes that's seeing a different healer. Sometimes that's seeing a different trainer. Sometimes that's hanging out with friends. Sometimes that's finding a passion outside of ballet. But you really have to accept the low moments, accept those feelings, work through those feelings, and then reach a point where you pull yourself out. And only you can really do that.
[42:49] And then part 2: my future self. Okay, so this is a word from one of my favorite childhood movies, The Polar Express. My family watched it every Thanksgiving since it came out, and it's just the word: believe. And my mom — it's one of the words in our text thread, me, my mom, and my sister especially. We have this text thread, and especially around Christmas, we always say it.
[43:10] But I would tell my future self to believe. I've learned a lot in my many years with the company, as a professional ballerina, battling various injuries, and now building a company. And through the worst of times and the best of times, you just have to believe. And that's what I would say.

[43:28] Jennifer Milner: We have covered a lot today, and I'm so grateful for the time that you have spent talking with us and sharing your experience — from living within the bubble as a child, figuring out how to really thrive there, and the whole act of finding balance within your life, within your career, within your illness and your injuries, just how to find that. Is there anything that we didn't discuss that you would like to touch on?

[43:55] Jenelle Manzi: I think I just want to thank you both. I think many people would agree with this, but finding your podcast really did change my life. It was a really dark time for me when I discovered it, and there were several episodes where I would just cry through them because I felt so frustrated that this was me. But it was working through that, and feeling like I wasn't alone, that gave me hope. And I think what you both are doing is remarkable and just so important to the dance community and beyond.
[44:30] I think there is so much research that needs to be done with EDS — who it affects and how it affects people and where things are going. And it's only going to get solved through both research and getting the word out there. And I wanted to thank you both for having me. It's an honor to speak on a podcast that I listened to for many, many moons. And that's what I wanted to say. That's all I've got.

[44:55] Jennifer Milner: Well, we're happy with that. But where can people find you? Because I know a lot of people are going to want to reach out and learn more about you and your company.

[45:06] Jenelle Manzi: You can find me — I need to post more. I'm going to have a new EDS tab officially. I need to redo my highlights. They're very outdated. Hopefully by the time this airs they won't be all weird, but it's so much work. And you can find me at @jenellemanzi — J-E-N-E-L-L-E-M-A-N-Z-I — on Instagram. And TikTok. I don't use it a lot, but I do TikTok too. And my website for my company is getgolden.com, and same for the Instagram.

[45:45] Jennifer Milner: Excellent. And we will have that in the liner notes of the podcast so people can be sure to find you. You have been listening to Bendy Bodies with the Hypermobility MD, and our guest today is Jenelle Manzi, professional ballet dancer with New York City Ballet and founder of Get Golden. Jenelle, thank you so much for sharing your story and your journey and your words of wisdom and encouragement to all of our listeners. We really appreciate it. Thank you.

[46:08] Dr. Linda Bluestein: It was an honor. We feel so fortunate to get to chat with you, and I know a lot of dancers and non-dancers are going to really enjoy getting to hear your story. You're such an inspiration. So thank you.

[46:23] Jennifer Milner: Please help us spread the word about hypermobility and associated conditions by leaving a review and sharing the podcast. This really helps with podcast rankings and raising awareness about these complex conditions. If you love what you learned, follow the Bendy Bodies Podcast to avoid missing future episodes. Screenshot this episode, tagging us in your story so we can connect. Our website is www.bendybodies.org and follow us on Instagram at bendy_bodies. We love seeing your posts and stories, so please tag us using #BendyBuddy. This information is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure, or prevent any disease. The information shared is for educational purposes only and is not a substitute for medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Please refer to your local qualified health practitioner for all medical concerns. We will catch you next time on the Bendy Bodies Podcast.