Supporting a Dancer’s Mental Health with Psychotherapist, Terry Hyde

[00:12] Dr. Linda Bluestein: Hello and welcome to Bendy Bodies. I am so thrilled to be here today with Jennifer Milner, my guest co-host, and Terry Hyde. Terry is a counselor and he is a former professional ballet dancer with the Royal Ballet. Terry, we are thrilled to have you on today.

[00:42] Terry Hyde: Thank you for inviting me.

[00:44] Dr. Linda Bluestein: And Jen, it's great to have you on as well.

[00:46] Jennifer Milner: Thank you.

[00:48] Dr. Linda Bluestein: Okay, wonderful. Well, Terry—

[00:49] Terry Hyde: Hello, Linda. Hello, Jen. Hello. The wonders of technology.

[00:54] Jennifer Milner: I know, right?

[00:56] Dr. Linda Bluestein: Yes, absolutely. Well, Terry, it is fabulous to have you on today and to hear about your counseling that you're doing with dancers and your work in the space of mental health for dancers. You started out as a ballet dancer, is my understanding. Can you tell us a bit about what got you into dance and your career as a ballet dancer?

[01:21] Terry Hyde: Yes, I was a lively child, and what got me into dancing was the fact that my mother didn't want to keep buying new furniture that I jumped on because I was so lively. She sent me to ballet class when I was 6 years old. The school that I was in put me in for the scholarship for the RAD, and I did that for 5 years, got the scholarship for 5 years, after which, at age 15, I joined the Royal Ballet School, the senior school in London. I was there for 2 and a half years, and in the January of the final year the artistic director of the Royal Ballet phoned up the school and said they wanted me to join the company to play the Russian Sun in Boutique Fantasque, which was just being represented by Leonid Matin, the choreographer of it. So I got in under a temporary contract just for that tour of it, and then they took me on permanently after that, and I was there for about 2 and a half years.
[02:22] The two companies of the Royal Ballet were joining together, and I left before that happened and joined London's Festival Ballet as a soloist. Now, London's Festival Ballet is now called English National Ballet, and we've just had the 70 years anniversary of it last week. So I was doing principal roles. It was mostly character roles — Sancho Panza in Don Q, the headmistress in Graduation Ball, Dr. Coppelius in Coppélia, those sort of character roles. I wanted to do more after that, so I left Festival Ballet and went into musical theater. The first show that I did was a UK tour of West Side Story, a brilliant, absolutely brilliant show. Nothing could have beaten it. And then I did West End musicals, film, and television.
[03:19] I retired 10 years later and set up a business management organization for looking after people in show business — singers, dancers, actors, lighting designers, theater designers, even the dentist of one of the dancers. I managed their affairs as well. I set that up and ran it for 15 years. And when I retired, I thought I need to know a bit more about what was going on. It was to do with the clients offloading all their issues. I'd go around to talk business and then they would start offloading, and I thought, what do I do with all this information and all this emotion? So that's when I started training to be a psychotherapist. In 2010, I did a master's degree in psychotherapy and healing practice.
[04:28] It wasn't until 2016 when an ex-dancer came to me after they had been discharged from a psychiatric unit. I treated that person for 6 months and then discharged her. And I thought afterwards, from a marketing mindset, this is a niche market. I've been there, done that, gone through all of that stuff, and now I'm a psychotherapist. I thought, wow, yes, let's put it together. So at the beginning of 2017, I set up a website called counsellingfordancers.com. A point I need to make for the American listeners is that "counselling" has two L's in the UK, so if you're doing a search, put two L's in.
[05:22] From 2017, I've been really pushing hard, banging on doors, emailing people. And I think because of the stigma of mental health, they don't want to know. The artistic directors or principals of schools just don't seem to want to know because there has to be this wonderful glowing sheen in front that the public must see, and they mustn't talk about mental health. They can talk about injuries and things like that, which of course is what we're going to be talking a bit about now, but mental health — no, it's a no-no. So it's taken 2 years, and if you look on my website, you can see the list of schools and organizations that I've actually got through to that are open-minded and are willing to support their dancers, whether they're students or whether they're professional dancers. I hope I covered that question for you.

[06:18] Dr. Linda Bluestein: Yes, absolutely. It's always fascinating to hear how people take their unique set of circumstances and turn it into something that benefits, as you said, a niche market, but a critically important group of people that desperately need help from people like you. So it's wonderful that you're doing what you're doing. As a counselor who specializes in dancers, you've probably seen dancers of all different body types and shapes. Has there been anything in your sessions that has made you draw a connection between hypermobility and specific mental health issues in dancers?

[06:59] Terry Hyde: Yes, it's called control — or from their point of view, lack of. When there is a lack of control — and this is general public as well as dancers — anxiety sets in because it's part of the fight, flight, and freeze mechanism. So when you look at hypermobile dancers, they have a lack of control. Could you imagine an ordinary person trying to walk on a tightrope that's swinging around, or on a moving floor? There's a lack of control, and anxiety sets in. And this is what happens with dancers who have extreme hypermobility.

[07:47] Jennifer Milner: That's interesting. I have seen that link myself between anxiety and dancers with hypermobility, but I've never drawn such a direct line between it from a lack of control perspective. A lack of physical control leads to that feeling of lack of control over other parts of your life as well. That's really interesting.

[08:09] Terry Hyde: There is a real knock-on effect. It's like being on a boat — there's a lack of control, you can't do anything. So you're either going to go with it or you're going to be really anxious about the moving boat.

[08:25] Jennifer Milner: Sure.

[08:26] Dr. Linda Bluestein: Yeah, that is very interesting. I've never heard it described in that way either, but that does make a lot of sense. Whether people are dancers or not, people with hypermobility are definitely at increased risk of anxiety. You're explaining this in such a logical way, and control is such a huge factor — even in non-hypermobile, non-dance people — that I think we all feel better when we feel more of a sense of control as compared to when we don't. So that's very interesting. How do you use that piece of information in your work with dancers?

[08:57] Terry Hyde: You can't change the hypermobility because they've got it. And as long as teachers are able to use it in a positive way and try to help strengthen the hypermobile parts of the body, then the dancer would have more control and the anxiety reduces.
But it's about reframing the way those dancers see things. Having more of an understanding of their body, they can reframe the thoughts. When I'm doing my workshops — I run mental health self-care workshops both for dance companies and for dance schools, specific for dancers — I break them up into groups and get them to write down what are the physical feelings that they get for anxiety. There's a whole long list of stuff that comes out. Then without telling them why I'm doing it, I get them to do a list of what excites them — when something excites them, what are they feeling? And invariably the two lists come out the same.
So what is it that creates the difference between anxiety and excitement? It's a thought. The thought is usually "what if?" And you can say anything after "what if," and then you can go into fantasy land of what-ifs. The extreme anxiety version is: what if I step out of my front door and a slate falls off the roof? You can go to extremes. I get them to list their what-ifs, and then I say, where are all these what-ifs? Are they in the past, present, or future? Obviously they're in the future. And I say, can you control the future? You can to a certain extent by setting things in place, but you can go to an obsessive extreme — obsessive-compulsive disorder is an extreme form of anxiety. Someone needs to do something regularly because they're out of control. Something in their past has happened, some trauma or a perceived trauma, that took them out of control. And then they started controlling.
[11:53] We can go off onto anorexia now. If there's some trauma happening, what's the only thing you can control? What goes in your mouth. So that's where restrictive eating comes in. You can over-exercise — you can control that — and then you burn out. So all of these things come back to the ability or the inability to control your environment. If you were brought up in an environment where other siblings or parents were disruptive and you were the only quiet one, you had no control over what was going on. Or you have abusive parents — no control over that. So this is where these environmental situations give rise to anxiety, OCD, anorexia, and more. Plus, of course, when you go to the extremes, you then get depression because it becomes too much.
By the way, since you're coming from America — I was over with the Joffrey Ballet School in November of last year and spent 2 days with them doing these workshops with each year group. This was part of it: getting them to talk about their physical feelings when they have anxiety — audition anxiety, exam anxiety, performance anxiety. These things create a physical feeling because there's an intrinsic link between the mind and the body.
So I then asked them: if a ballet company comes to New York and you want to go and see them and you're excited about it, what are your physical feelings? They listed those physical feelings and bingo — they're the same as the anxiety list. The only difference is created by a thought: the negative thought or the positive thought, and as I mentioned, the what-ifs. What if I fell over on stage? What if my shoe fell off? What if I forgot? And then: my parents are out front, what if I go wrong? All of these things create — and because there's an intrinsic link between the mind and the body — invariably you do go wrong because you've told yourself you'll go wrong.
[14:32] So the thing is to reframe it: I'm excited about this, I'm excited to go on stage, I'm excited that my parents are out front, I'm going to be really good. And then you go on and do it. That is the difference. It's the thought — the negative thought versus the positive one.

[14:51] Jennifer Milner: That's a beautiful way to help give them the power to reframe it and take control of that feeling of not having control.

[14:59] Terry Hyde: That's right. And as I mentioned, the lack of control has so much to do with so many other disorders. So there we are.

[15:14] Dr. Linda Bluestein: Wow, that is really interesting. I don't know about you, Jen, but I've never heard things explained in quite that way before. And to me, the more that we understand these things, the better we can deal with them ourselves and the better we can help other people who are struggling with these situations.

[15:35] Jennifer Milner: Absolutely, absolutely. And I see so much in the dancers that I work with and through my own career. There is so little that you can control as a dancer. You have no control over casting. You have no control over who's going to hire you. And you can always say, well, I choose to accept this contract and I choose to go to this place — but still, as a dancer, you feel like there's not a lot you do have control over. You don't have control over whether your favorite maker of pointe shoes is going to retire and suddenly you have to find a new type. There's so much as a dancer that you don't feel like you have control over. And it's so easy for dancers to think, well, what can I control? And as you said, those can go into some self-harm areas for sure.

[16:28] Terry Hyde: Yes, they go to dark areas as to what they control. But the other thing I talk about in the workshops is the fact that when situations arise, they're meant to happen — for a reason. If you have that philosophy, it makes life easier. And to work with your gut feeling — I was talking about the intrinsic link between the mind and the body. From an early age, we're told one thing. We'll go back to the anxiety now. Maybe a teacher or a parent said, "Aren't you nervous about going on stage?" So that feeling that a child has has been told that they're nervous, and they're already linked into that nervous thing, rather than saying, "I bet you're excited about going on stage," so they can link: "Ah, that feeling is excitement." It's telling students one thing that creates all this negativity, rather than being positive right from the beginning. Sorry, I went off track there.

[17:39] Dr. Linda Bluestein: Oh no, that's absolutely fantastic. This is going to be very useful information because, whether you're auditioning for something and they're looking for somebody who's a different height than you, you can't control that.

[17:55] Terry Hyde: Correct, that's right. And of course it's really subjective in an audition — if the person auditioning understands how subjective it is, that a director or choreographer will only want a certain type of person. Yes, you've got everyone else there, but they're only looking for a certain type, and therefore if you don't fit, that's okay. It's not right for you. Go on and do another audition somewhere else.
[18:24] And I hear so often, "I want to get into the Royal Ballet, I want to get into ABT" — and you think, is that company really right for you? Are you going to enjoy it? So if they do get in, all well and good. But if they force and force and force and they finally get in, are they going to be happy there? Is that the right company for them?
[18:51] I had one client who had this idea of getting to where she wanted to get to — I obviously can't mention companies otherwise it'll come back to her. I put all that to her and she finally went with her gut feeling, and she's really happy, not in the company that she originally wanted. And I said, it may be that you get into that company and then from there get to the company you actually wanted. But on the other hand, you may not. The less pressure you have on yourself, the easier it is for you.
[19:28] So before her audition, we did visualizations — I think in America you call it imagery, I call it visualizations. We do these visualizations on the process into the audition and doing the audition. She used these visualizations before, and she felt so relaxed. And of course, when you're relaxed, you do things better.

[19:56] Jennifer Milner: Absolutely, yes. And I think it's so important what you said about things that come up, coming up for a reason and being useful. I see over and over again with dancers, especially with injuries, something will happen and they will just be devastated and say, "Now I can't do this." They see only the short term: the next 3 months of my life are ruined. And I always tell them, this injury is not a speed bump that's going to make you slow down. You can use it as a launching ramp — like the ramp that bikes ride to jump up and go higher in the air. You can look at it as something that's going to slow you down and hold you back, or you can look at it as an opportunity to get stronger and healthier and better. And when you come back from the injury, you're going to be better than you were before.

[20:48] Terry Hyde: That's a great analogy, Jen.

[20:49] Jennifer Milner: It's so important for them to see that. And especially with my hypermobile clients, they get so frustrated and say, "I cannot handle this body. I can't deal with it. It's not fair that all my friends can do this and I'm still trying to hold it all together." And I'm like, "But you put the work in now and it's going to be so much better down the road." Having this trial will make them a better dancer than if it had just come naturally to them and everything just fell into place without having to work for it.

[21:17] Terry Hyde: Hmm. And if they can accept that they needed the break.

[21:23] Jennifer Milner: Yes.

[21:24] Terry Hyde: What was their body telling them? Because I do visualizations with injuries as well, and I get them to talk to their bodies. I feed them the questions and they talk to their bodies. These demonstrations in the workshops sometimes bring out emotions because the answers some of the students and professional dancers get are quite emotional — their body's been trying to tell them something for some time. One person said, "I can't speak." So I bent down and they whispered, and the answer was: I need to rest.
[22:07] You're getting these answers all the time from your body, or your body is screaming out trying to tell you things, and they just — the body then just gives out, and then you have an injury. And the stress that the body is taking also creates stress in the mind, and that's when anxiety, tiredness, burnout, and all of these things happen. And of course, when you are tired, you are more likely to be injured because you're not controlling your body in a way that is safe.
So it becomes a question of: does a mental health struggle create an injury, and then when you are injured, do you then develop anxiety? And I don't mean a mental illness as in a disorder — I mean you not being yourself, the emotions and everything like that. Because you don't need to have a mental illness to come and see me. You can get to a crossroads in life — I've had dancers come to me and say, "I don't know what to do, I'm deciding whether to leave dance or do something else." These crossroads in careers, they come to me for help with that. And also the grieving process of leaving — leaving a career, leaving an identity.
[23:43] If you consider, and I know we're going off subject here, that some of them have trained since 2 years old and they are mid-20s into 30s — that is a long time to have an identity, and then you're going to lose that identity. Or are you? What are you going to do after that? That creates anxiety.

[24:02] Jennifer Milner: Absolutely.

[24:04] Terry Hyde: And when you look at extra hypermobile dancers, that's a thing they're worried about as well — should they give up? Do they need to persevere? So those are the things that are talked about in therapy sessions. There we are, I brought it back to hypermobility again.

[24:26] Dr. Linda Bluestein: Yeah, and Terry, I am so happy that you brought up grieving because that was not something I anticipated we would touch on specifically, but it's critically important. I have gone through that personally, both —

[24:41] Terry Hyde: Of course.

[24:43] Dr. Linda Bluestein: — when I realized I was not going to be able to be a professional dancer when I was a teenager, and my own injuries led me onto a different path. And then again when, as an anesthesiologist, I developed some medical problems that made me have to switch from working in the operating room to doing something different — which I now do, pain management. Both of those times, and several places along the way, and with my patients and other people I know, you're absolutely right about the grieving of the identity. And that's really, really hard. Do you have suggestions for how to help people cope with that? Because I think you've hit on just a huge part of what's challenging for people.

[25:31] Terry Hyde: We go through transitions throughout our lives, and especially for dancers. If you think about going from local school into vocational school, you're leaving behind all these things. If you have to move, you're leaving friends as well, leaving home if you're going to a boarding school. Then you're going from being a child — even though you're 17, 18, 19 — into a company to become an adult, although you're still a child there. So there's all these transitions, each involving some degree of grieving.
[26:28] If you look up the stages of grief online, the final stage is acceptance. So you accept where you are and who you are at that point in time, and accept what you have learned from the process. This is me saying it, not the stages of grief online. Accept what you've learned from the stage just before that. Take that with you — whether it's positive or negative. Understand what the negativity is and leave that behind. Bring with you the positive things you've learned, and bring with you an awareness of what happened around the negativity so it doesn't happen again.
[27:18] I think the main thing is identity. Some dancers who have got real injuries retire and all they talk about is the injuries — a new knee or a new hip. The injuries become their identity. So if they become well, what are they going to do? They don't have an identity. Nobody's going to run and help them, nobody's going to talk to them. All of these things are wrapped up into identity. Who are you? Or: who am I?

[28:06] Jennifer Milner: Yes, absolutely. I went through that myself when I had an injury that stopped my dancing career and ended up going in for counseling and using Career Transition for Dancers, which is a great organization in the United States that helps dancers who have had a professional career transition. If I hadn't found that, I don't know where I would have gone or who I would have figured out to talk to. So having people out there who say, hey, this is a thing and it's okay to need help getting through this thing —

[28:41] Terry Hyde: Mm-hmm.

[28:42] Jennifer Milner: — just because you're 27 and you have your whole life ahead of you and you can do so many more careers, just move on — that's not easy. So helping people understand and acknowledge that it's something that needs attention, and that it's okay to give it that attention. That's so important.

[29:02] Terry Hyde: Yes. Yes.

[29:04] Dr. Linda Bluestein: Do you have suggestions for dancers in terms of how they can work on the mental health aspects so that their physical pain doesn't overwhelm them?

[29:17] Terry Hyde: Yes, there are visualizations that I use to help with pain management. Jennifer, I don't know what you do with regard to pain management.

[29:30] Jennifer Milner: Personally, I talk to smart people like Dr. Bluestein and work on a vitamin regimen. Pain management for me is about finding that balance between healthy movement — I have to keep moving — and not doing too much. I think the biggest issue for dancers, especially hypermobile ones, when they retire — whether by choice or forced by injury — is that you can't just stop. When you do stop, your body has been held together for so many years, and when you stop as a hypermobile person, it doesn't know what to do. So I have to continue with my exercise, with my working out, being accountable to other people, and then stay on top of it with really clean, healthy eating and vitamins. And then a fair number of people that I can talk to and confide in — I can offload on them and they can build me back up a little bit when it gets too bad. What do you usually suggest?

[30:49] Terry Hyde: I do the talking to the body, and although it's easier to do this in one-to-one sessions because it's more personal, I also do it in the workshops as a demonstration of how powerful the mind is. This is talking about anxiety and reframing — and how the voices in our head, the accumulated voices from parents and teachers that correct us all the time, affect us. We're able to reduce pain, whether for a short period or a longer one.
[31:31] So I teach the technique of talking to the injury. First of all, why did you get the injury, and then making the injured area into a symbolic shape or a character or something like that, and changing what it is. It's quite powerful to be able to do that. And I also teach meditation and mindfulness. These are all part of what I do.
[32:18] I get them to score their pain at the beginning, and that's how I pick people out — I want someone with quite a high score on a 0 to 10 scale so that I can reduce it to an extent that they say, "Oh wow, that's great." But I do preface what I'm doing by saying it doesn't mean your injury has healed, it means that your pain is reduced. Don't go off and dance if you have a bad injury just because the pain is reduced. It just allows the body — if it's not trying to protect you from the pain — to get on with healing.

[33:06] Jennifer Milner: Yeah, that makes sense.

[33:08] Dr. Linda Bluestein: This is fantastic, these types of tools that you're giving people, because they can use them throughout their whole lives. Correct?

[33:15] Terry Hyde: Yes, that's right.

[33:16] Jennifer Milner: Absolutely. I like the idea of looking inside yourself, looking at the injury, acknowledging it, giving it a symbolic shape so that people can reconcile with it. And I think that leads into — if you could elaborate a bit more on how you help dancers learn to love and accept their injury and their body. You spoke earlier about how identities can be tied up in being dancers, and who we are, and what we can control. How do you help dancers accept their body, love their hypermobility, love the body shape — whether it's the one they wish they had or not — and, if not embrace, at least accept and acknowledge those flaws?

[34:16] Terry Hyde: It takes quite a few sessions because you have to break the initial thought patterns they've had right from early on — what they've been told and their own subjective view of themselves. All of that has to be broken down and broken away and then rebuilt as to who they want to be, who they feel they are. Once they do that, they can start loving themselves. And that's such an important thing to be able to say: I love myself.
[34:54] Because as a dancer, especially in ballet, it's very black and white thinking right from early childhood, with a teacher correcting you every day. You're wrong, you're wrong, you're wrong, you're wrong. The self-esteem gets knocked on the head continually. So we create, as dancers throughout our childhood, very black and white thinking. There is no gray, there's no pragmatism. You're either right or you're wrong. So it's turned in on ourselves: I'm no good. It's a continual battering.
[35:37] It's not verbal abuse, but it's verbal negativity. A lot of teachers don't have time to support all of the students. I was in a workshop recently where they were talking about corrections. I said, "How do you take corrections?" They said, "Oh, very well." I said, "You write them in notebooks?" "Yes, we write them in notebooks at the end of the class." And then I turned it around: "What do you feel like when you don't get corrected?" And there was silence in the studio. One person said, "I felt awful." And then others started talking about feeling bad about not being corrected — none of them would say, "Ah, that was great, I wasn't corrected." It was so negative.

[36:45] Jennifer Milner: Right.

[36:46] Terry Hyde: And so all of that has to be taken away and rebuilt into: "I am okay. It's okay to be sad. It's okay to be happy. It's okay not to be corrected." The whole thing has to be built up again.

[37:07] Jennifer Milner: Well, Terry, this is where it shows just how valuable it is to have someone like you in this position, because most counselors would not stop to think to ask that question. That is absolutely true. I spent my whole life growing up thinking if you don't get corrected, it's because the teacher doesn't think you're worth spending the time on — because they only work with the ones they like. That's the sort of feeling you grow up with.
[37:35] And there's this sense that dancers are naturally people-pleasers and perfectionists. I wonder how much of it is, are we constantly trying to please other people because we haven't figured out how to love ourselves? Would we be striving so much for external validation if we had that internal certainty — this is who I am and this is good?

[38:09] Terry Hyde: You've hit the nail on the head. I don't need to answer that.

[38:14] Jennifer Milner: So when you see a dancer striving with that people-pleasing and perfectionist tendency, do you try to help them find a healthy balance by working on their self-appreciation, or do you try to help them find a work-life balance? How do you approach that?

[38:30] Terry Hyde: It's across the board. And the thing is, Jennifer, that when people come and see me, they don't come for that. They come for something else that could be — I won't say trivial, but it could be the tip of the iceberg. They're coming to me with the top of the iceberg, and then we work downwards, and those deeper things come out after half a dozen sessions or so. I don't want to get too heavy about this, but after about 10 sessions, this young lady came to see me and she revealed that she had been abused. That was the nugget — like peeling back the onion skin.

[39:21] Jennifer Milner: Absolutely.

[39:22] Terry Hyde: She was about 8 years old when it happened, and I think she was 17 when she came to see me. All of this had come from that — the low self-esteem, not good enough, etc. — which was reinforced by teachers at the academy or the ballet school, parents ignoring her, all of these things. So it's just a whole compilation of different aspects. And some people don't want to dig there. Either they consciously know it's happened and don't want to talk about it, or unconsciously they fear something is there. But the only way to get through it is to actually work through it — to get angry and get upset and get frustrated.

[41:22] Jennifer Milner: Yeah, because that's the only way to be healed, to get through it. I see the same thing physically when dancers come to me and say, "I have this hip issue and I'm trying to work on it." And I say, "That's great, we're going to work on your back because I can see it's coming from there." And they're like, "I don't want to work on my back, I don't like working on my back." Well, we're going to work on your back.

[41:47] Terry Hyde: Why don't you like working on your back?

[41:50] Jennifer Milner: Because it's hard and I can't do it and it doesn't feel good. The exact same principle — just with much lower stakes. Obviously the stakes in your work are much higher.
[42:00] And I think so much of what dancers have to deal with comes down to finding that center, that moral center we talked about, and loving yourself — but getting constantly barraged from teachers, parents, schools, companies. And now, just within the past few years —

[42:18] Dr. Linda Bluestein: From social media.

[42:18] Jennifer Milner: From social media. I cannot tell you how glad I am my career was before social media. I don't know that I would have survived it. I'm sure social media and its influence comes up with your dancers in sessions. What sort of problems do you see that dancers knowingly or unknowingly might bring in, and what kind of advice would you give dancers about how to utilize social media in the healthiest possible way?

[42:52] Terry Hyde: Well, the last question — don't go on it. But the build-up to your question is: comparing.

[43:03] Jennifer Milner: Yes, right, right.

[43:04] Terry Hyde: They're comparing. If they see other people who are allegedly better than them in that fraction of a second that's on there, or their short little video clips done after class where they've done 12 pirouettes on pointe — I bet they couldn't do that again — so they think, "Oh my God, look, they've done that, I can't do that." And their self-esteem just drops.
[43:23] And this awful thing — we're talking about hypermobility — this awful thing of overstretching. When someone takes their leg right over and touches the other ear. It's overstretching, like that awful crotch shot. You know, there are shows — do they dance like that?

[43:46] Dr. Linda Bluestein: Right.

[43:46] Terry Hyde: And of course they don't.

[43:48] Dr. Linda Bluestein: Right.

[43:49] Jennifer Milner: Or if they do, not for very long.

[43:50] Terry Hyde: Not for very long, no.

[43:53] Dr. Linda Bluestein: How many people have injured themselves trying to do that because they've seen somebody else do it?

[43:59] Jennifer Milner: Yes.

[43:59] Dr. Linda Bluestein: And they don't realize — I think dancers are also drawn to dance because there's some part of them that likes that constant critique and those comparisons and the hypervigilance about these little details. In ballet, it's all about the minor, minor details. People who are hypermobile tend to be hypervigilant about a lot of things, which of course just increases their anxiety. And things like deconditioning, once it starts to happen, can make it worse. Terry's point about social media — just completely staying off — is an interesting one, because once you're on it, it can be very hard to modulate.

[44:54] Terry Hyde: Yes, because it's all about being liked. And that's the word on social media: like. They're craving for the likes. And when the likes don't come, or not enough likes come, they become depressed and upset. "Why isn't anyone liking? I've only got 50 and I got 200 the other day. Why didn't they like my photo? What was wrong with it?" So all of this imaginary build-up — the what-ifs I mentioned before. It's all the same model: looking at something that's unrealistic.

[45:35] Jennifer Milner: Absolutely. Yes, I totally agree. It's finding the balance because social media is here and you can't ignore it. I know when dancers audition for a company, the companies look at their social media — it's become their new resume.

[45:54] Dr. Linda Bluestein: Basically.

[45:55] Jennifer Milner: And I tell my dancers when they go audition for colleges or summer intensives — if they're younger — I had a dancer whose friend auditioned for a college summer program. She got a full scholarship. Two days later, she posted on her social media, "Cutting class because it's too nice outside," and the college called her the next day and revoked her scholarship. They said, "We don't want someone that is going to be cutting class." So I caution my dancers: social media should be your resume, your business card, what you use to establish what sort of dancer you're going to be to the world. But it's not something to go to for affirmation and feedback.

[46:43] Terry Hyde: Quite.

[46:44] Jennifer Milner: Because it is fake. It is fake, for sure.

[46:48] Terry Hyde: So one day a week would be a good start. Obviously they're going to get withdrawal symptoms because it's an addiction. With all addictions, you get withdrawal symptoms. So yeah, let's start off with 1 day a week.

[47:05] Dr. Linda Bluestein: Wow, so literally — that is great. And I just want to make sure I understand correctly: you're suggesting 6 days a week are social media free, and 1 day per week you go on and do whatever you need or want to do. And I agree with you, but self-control is going to be challenging. I think these are fantastic suggestions.

[47:34] Terry Hyde: I just want to be clear — you know the saying, do as I say, not as I do? My social media is for business. My 3 social media sites are Instagram, Facebook, and Twitter, and they are for business. I'll give you the handles now: @counsellingfordancers with two L's — that's Instagram and Facebook. And because Twitter has a character limit for usernames, it's @counsellingdance — and that one has one L.

[48:33] Jennifer Milner: Ah, just to keep us on our metaphorical toes.

[48:37] Terry Hyde: Yes, that's right.

[48:39] Jennifer Milner: You got the point, didn't you?

[48:43] Terry Hyde: Yes, this is a fun one.

[48:43] Dr. Linda Bluestein: Yes, and we will have links to all of your sites, your website, and all of your social media on the Bendy Bodies podcast page, which will be found under the hypermobilitymd.com website. So for people who might be thinking, how am I going to remember all that — I'm driving in my car — we will make it as easy as possible to find Terry.
[49:15] I'm glad you brought that up, Terry, because Jen, myself, and you all use social media for business. What advice do you give to business owners like us who are also trying to navigate relationships and other things, and so can still run into problems with social media?

[49:36] Terry Hyde: Are you talking about business or non-business use?

[49:40] Dr. Linda Bluestein: I guess I'm talking about balancing social media use when you are using it for business. You've explained that if you're not using it for business, use it one day a week and the other 6 days stay off it. If you're using it for business, do you have any suggestions? Because we'll have a wide variety of listeners on this program, some of whom are studio owners who may also be using social media for their studio.

[50:15] Terry Hyde: I'm in two groups of dance teachers on Facebook — I think they're Dance Teachers Hub and Dance Teachers Network or something like that — and I see a lot of postings there asking for help and things, which I think is helpful. But there are some posts on there where I think, why on earth did you post that? It's really making you look bad. So my advice is: be mindful of what you're saying. Type it on a screen or write it first, and then post it if you think it's okay. Some of the things that get posted on the business side just make them look foolish because they haven't thought it through before posting.
[51:13] You know this thing about when you get angry and you want to send off an email to someone — yes, type it out because then you can get your anger out, but don't send it. Edit it, go away for a few hours, come back and redo it, and send it without all the anger. Be firm if needed. Just be mindful of what you're writing and what you're posting. And also pictures as well.

[51:24] Dr. Linda Bluestein: Sure.

[51:48] Terry Hyde: Especially with studio owners and young girls and boys — be careful what you post picture-wise.

[51:56] Jennifer Milner: Sure, absolutely.

[51:58] Dr. Linda Bluestein: And I was just going to ask about that. So you're thinking along the lines of what they might be sharing in the way of photos. What is it that they're doing that makes you think, did you think twice before you actually hit send?

[52:17] Terry Hyde: I can't think of any specific examples, but I'm sure your listeners will go, "Yes, I've seen those."

[52:25] Jennifer Milner: The people who go and say, "I just have to rant," and then they say a little something and put the smiley face after it and post it. And you think, that's the kind of thing you should tell your girlfriend over dinner, not necessarily everybody on Facebook.

[52:39] Terry Hyde: Yes, right, right. Or your therapist.

[52:41] Jennifer Milner: Or your therapist. Exactly, exactly.

[52:46] Dr. Linda Bluestein: Well, I think an important thing for all of us to remember is that the way social media is set up — constantly showing you new things — it feels like it's not permanent, when in actuality anything that you write can be captured. Even if you go back later and delete that comment or post, somebody could have taken a screenshot. So anything that you write can actually have permanence. I know when I was applying to be on the faculty at the Medical College of Wisconsin, they looked at my social media. As you were saying, Jennifer, a student had an offer withdrawn — it happens at all levels. They will look at your social media and see what you've shared. You get a lot of insight into a person that way.

[53:35] Jennifer Milner: Absolutely. And I think the other piece to social media, at least for me and where I am, is to control who I follow. I'm always telling my dancers: if you are following people who are super bendy or posting super this and super that, it can lead to a lot of envy and self-comparison that is not helpful. I try to only follow people that are encouraging to me, or that I learn something from, or whose posts I enjoy but don't feel I have to compare myself to. So it's not just what we put out there, but also what we allow ourselves to take in from social media.

[54:21] Dr. Linda Bluestein: Good point. Yeah.

[54:22] Terry Hyde: Yeah.

[54:22] Jennifer Milner: Yes.

[54:23] Dr. Linda Bluestein: That's a very good point. And the more you like certain things, the more they will show you of those things. So what you follow is critically important because they all have algorithms.

[54:29] Jennifer Milner: Right. Right. And that will show up.
[54:37] Well, we have talked a lot about some of the issues that dancers struggle with and a lot of the burdens and baggage that we carry throughout our careers. But what doesn't get talked about as much are the positive skills that dancers have — skills we might have more than the general public. Sometimes dancers are portrayed as having grown up in a bubble, or not very world-smart, all sorts of stereotypes. But there are actually a lot of great life skills that you get out of being a dancer. What do you see as some of these positive skills, and how do you encourage dancers to take ownership of them and be able to use them outside the dance studio?

[55:23] Terry Hyde: When you retire — whether forced or by choice — there are so many transferable skills that dancers have learned. Yes, we may have black and white thinking, but that helps us concentrate. So I retired, set up a business, and that drive that carried me through a dance career and a performance career — the concentration, the need to improve — carried me through into that business.
[56:00] What I didn't mention is that over a cross-period, for 12 years I sat in both criminal and family courts as a magistrate, part-time. And for 4 years I was on the Lord Chancellor's Advisory Committee. So all of these different things that I learned as a dancer from that early age and performing were transferable into all of these different aspects of life. And then of course doing a master's degree at something like 50 years old. I wasn't academic at all — I left school with 3 exams: English language, maths, and general science. I was rubbish at school, and then I was doing a master's degree. So it doesn't matter.
[56:52] Nowadays, of course, a lot of the vocational schools want you to do a degree, so they've already started to help you toward what comes next. But yes, there are all these transferable positives. Being in a group together, and supporting each other — though I know there are some individuals who like to be by themselves. I went to a pre-professional school on Monday because one of the dancers had died from cancer, and I was just talking to them about grief. I spent about an hour with them, and when one of them was talking and they were in tears, all these arms would come out of nowhere and they'd all touch that person. It was so wonderful to see. There is this camaraderie that is built up when you're dancing, either in school or performing.
There's also the speed of learning things. Even if some people say, "Oh, I can't pick this up" — they do, they just think they don't. And there's the positive of actually going out on stage and performing. 2,000 people, 1,500 people, 400 people — you go out there and perform, and that takes a lot. So all of these are positives. Can you think of any others, Jennifer? Linda?

[58:41] Jennifer Milner: For me, the discipline was very helpful. You have to have a certain amount of self-discipline to reach a certain level, even if it's just in the ballet school and not professionally. I think the discipline crosses over into a lot of different areas. Linda, what about you?

[59:01] Dr. Linda Bluestein: For me, I know when I was first getting injured in high school, I found myself with these big blocks of time when I wasn't able to dance, and I thought, now what do I do? Because I was used to being so efficient with my schoolwork, my classes, rehearsals. So I think definitely all the things both of you have mentioned, and also — time management was another one that was very useful.

[59:35] Jennifer Milner: Absolutely. Well, Terry, you mentioned earlier that one of the benefits of being a dancer is that family group and that sense of closeness. We absolutely lean on each other during the hard rehearsals, the long tech weeks, the disappointing casting, and all of that. When a dancer is going through some sort of challenging mental health issue, what can their dance family, their actual family, and their friends do to support them? What are some suggestions you would give to those who see a dancer struggling?

[1:00:15] Terry Hyde: The first thing is: don't try and fix it.

[1:00:20] Jennifer Milner: Thank you.

[1:00:20] Terry Hyde: Just be there. Just be the pair of ears. Just be someone that will listen.

[1:00:27] Jennifer Milner: Beautiful.

[1:00:28] Terry Hyde: Yes, that's it. That's all they need. The majority of the time, people just want to offload. And I still deal with general public clients who come to see me for therapy, and the most common complaint from women — and it's usually women — is either "he won't listen to me" or "he wants to fix it." That's a male thing, but in the dance world, everyone wants to fix things because we are fixers. We want to get things right.

[1:01:32] Jennifer Milner: That's right. So it's our mindset. We want to help people, we want to fix it for them — "this is what you should do, that's what you should do, if I were in your place I'd da da da." No. Don't do any of that. Just say: "What would be helpful for you? For me to do?"

[1:01:53] Dr. Linda Bluestein: I love that.

[1:01:58] Jennifer Milner: So what sort of warning signs would family, friends, and dancers themselves need to look for — the possibility of self-harm, going into an eating disorder, depression, suicidal thoughts — what warning signs do we need to look for in dancers, whether in ourselves or in those around us, to the point where we need to encourage them to get help?

[1:02:28] Terry Hyde: From the point of view of the individual themselves, it creeps up on them. If they do start self-harming — cutting themselves or scratching or picking sores, or pulling their eyebrows or eyelashes out — there's a realization there that something is wrong, and they need to feel brave and open enough to say to someone, "I need help."
So for the example of that group on Monday, I said: don't just say, "Hi, how are you?" and walk past. If that person looks low, down, sad, doesn't want to talk, actually ask them again, "How are you? Would you like to talk?" That's the supportive way.
[1:03:38] Other signs: being reclusive, not wanting to join in with things — especially if you're in a group or a year group or a family. Within a family: not wanting to eat, not wanting to talk, sleeping a lot, going up to their bedroom a lot, not communicating. Being tearful — though most of the time they go and cry in their room. These are some of the signs.
Friends and family who know these people well will see changes and hear changes in what's being said. Being overly loud, talking too much, because what the individual is doing is covering up — masking. They don't realize they're going over the top because it's not really them. Other people will recognize it. So it's recognizing the differences in the individual's behavior.

[1:05:04] Jennifer Milner: Yes. Well, it sounds like over the course of this conversation, what I've heard from you is that dancers have to be able to get to a point where they love themselves and accept themselves and can hold that place within themselves regardless of what other people are saying or doing around them. And it sounds like we are hoping — and desperately need — mental health to become a more talked-about issue amongst dancers, and that the stigma needs to be taken away so that it can be something more open and out there.
[1:05:46] I've crossed paths with you several times over the past year or so, and we've worked together on some things. I know you've been building this since 2017, mm-hmm, and there are a few other organizations out there working on this too. What are you hoping will happen in the next couple of years for mental health and dancers? New studies? Bridges that might be built? Where are you hoping it's going?

[1:06:13] Terry Hyde: What I see in the next 5 years is, in the UK, I want to set up continuing professional development — CPD — workshops for counselors and psychotherapists who want to work with people in show business, want to work with performers, so they understand what performers are. I've had so many clients come to me and say, "Oh, I've had counseling before and they had no idea what I was talking about." In fact, one of them said the counselor told them to give up because "this is clearly not the right profession for you" — with the anxiety. So they have no idea. So there's that.
I'm also trying to get some research together, trying to get a research center together — ideally with a university, and if any of your listeners know of one, even in the States, please get in touch. It needs a dance company or a pre-professional vocational school because it needs quantitative research done on: if you have a mental health issue — even mild anxiety or depression — are you more susceptible to injury? And then the other research is looking at ADHD and neurodiversity in dancers. Is it more prevalent in dancers than in the general public? Because of the ballet training specifically from year dot. And the black and white thinking I mentioned is all part of these neurodiversity traits.
[1:08:10] So those are the two bits of research I'm looking at. And it comes from the top. This next 5 years hopefully means the principals of the pre-professional vocational schools and the artistic directors opening their ears and taking their blinkers off to say, "Yes, there is an issue, and yes, please come and help us."
From my own point of view, I only know of a couple of other people doing similar work — one I think on your West Coast, and someone in Australia. But I am available to travel the world to do these workshops for schools and dance companies. And when I do these workshops, they go, "Wow, yeah, I wish you'd come before, we needed you." They're so blinkered that they just don't listen. They don't want to know. Because everything has to be glamorous — the glitter, the lights, the costumes. They don't want any issues about mental health.

[1:09:22] Jennifer Milner: How will this look on Instagram?

[1:09:24] Dr. Linda Bluestein: Well, we're masters of illusion, right? We're taught —

[1:09:27] Terry Hyde: We are smoke and mirrors.

[1:09:29] Dr. Linda Bluestein: Yeah. This is what I explained on Saturday too: with pain and dancers — pain and hypermobility disorders are my two biggest areas of passion — this ties into both. We're taught from an early age that we need to try to be as perfect as possible, especially in ballet, because there is a right and a wrong way to do everything, and we're supposed to make it look as effortless as possible. So then it really becomes a problem: how do we get the self-care that we need? How do we tap into resources? How do we work together? I love what you're doing, Terry and Jen. It's really, really fantastic to get this information out.

[1:10:14] Jennifer Milner: Absolutely.

[1:10:15] Terry Hyde: Thank you. Thank you.

[1:10:17] Jennifer Milner: Well, I have so much to chew over from this interview. I really appreciate it, and I can't wait for my dancers to hear it and to be encouraged by it. Is there anything you want to add, anything you want to say to those dancers — especially the hypermobile ones who struggle with the issues we've talked about today?

[1:10:41] Terry Hyde: No, just to reiterate: love yourself, be good to yourself, look after yourself. And if you've got a day off, have a day off.

[1:10:53] Dr. Linda Bluestein: Thank you.

[1:10:53] Terry Hyde: Have a day off away from everything. Get out of the ballet bubble. Talk to people who have nothing to do with ballet. Make friends with people who have nothing to do with ballet — get an outside look on life. I left the ballet bubble when I left Festival Ballet and went into musical theatre. What a difference! It would be nice to be in ballet and still have that difference, but it was such a bubble, so blinkered.

[1:11:24] Dr. Linda Bluestein: And people can find you at counsellingfordancers.com — which is two L's. They can find you @counsellingfordancers on Instagram and Facebook, also with two L's. And on Twitter @counsellingdance with one L. Did I get that correct?

[1:11:33] Terry Hyde: It's @counsellingdance — yes, dance, with one L.

[1:11:52] Dr. Linda Bluestein: Dance with one L, okay, for Twitter. Very good. And we will also have all of these links on the HypermobilityMD website under the Bendy Bodies podcast link.

[1:11:53] Terry Hyde: Yes, and they can email me from the website. There's an email address, or just click on email and up comes your email account to ask me questions and things.

[1:12:20] Jennifer Milner: Excellent. And I know that people with your expertise are few and far between. I also know that you do long-distance counseling, so if anybody does not live in the UK, don't let that discourage you from reaching out to Terry and talking to him — he can work with you wherever you are.

[1:12:38] Terry Hyde: Correct. Yes. And treat it like you're going to a physical therapist. If you've got even one little thing that's on your mind — an audition coming up or something — just one or two sessions could clear you. Obviously some issues are a lot more involved than that, but just treat it like: I'm going to go to the physical therapist.

[1:13:06] Dr. Linda Bluestein: And having somebody with your expertise and your objectivity makes such a huge difference, because as much as we talked about family support, those people are already present in your life and their perspective is going to be different. Whereas you not only have the skill set and experience from multiple different angles — you've had such an interesting career with so many exposures — that really gives you such a unique perspective on all of this.

[1:13:40] Terry Hyde: There is another thing about therapy: a lot of schools and dance companies do have in-house therapists and counselors, but the students or dancers themselves don't want to go through the company because then the company knows — even though supposedly what's said in the counseling room is confidential, and I've heard otherwise from a school. Coming to me, there's no contact with the school or the dance company, so it really is confidential.

[1:14:20] Dr. Linda Bluestein: Right. And in the U.S., the rules surrounding confidentiality in mental health are very much more strict than they are for other medical records. However, I can completely understand the reluctance on the part of the student, because if you don't know 100% that you can say anything you need to, it's not the safe space that you need. They need a completely safe space to express their concerns.

[1:14:57] Terry Hyde: The other thing is that students are probably more likely to talk about their injuries to the school — "I've hurt this" — and then go along to the physical therapist and the strength and conditioning coach that the school supplies. But other than the stigma, there is a thought from the student or dancer that going for mental health is a sign of weakness. And so that's probably why they won't even go to the school counselor or the company counselor.

[1:15:31] Dr. Linda Bluestein: Sure.

[1:15:32] Jennifer Milner: Yes.

[1:15:33] Dr. Linda Bluestein: And I know that's true in other athletes as well. I think that's the other thing with dancers — they are both artist and athlete. So this entire conversation is also relevant for athletes. It's different for athletes in some ways, but I think it's useful information for so many people.

Jennifer Milner: Absolutely.

[1:15:50] Dr. Linda Bluestein: So is there anything else you would like to add, Terry?

[1:15:57] Terry Hyde: Yes, I'm in the process of writing a book — Mental Health Self-Care for Dancers — which should be out in October to coincide with, I think, the UK's mental health day, which is in October. So it'll be coming out then, all ready for Christmas presents.

[1:16:19] Jennifer Milner: Oh, perfect. I know what will be on my wish list that I publish every year — your book.

[1:16:27] Terry Hyde: Thank you very much.

[1:16:29] Dr. Linda Bluestein: I think Jen and I will have to get boxes of those shipped here to the States, out to all our dancers.

[1:16:34] Terry Hyde: It will be on print on demand, so you'll be getting them in your own country.

[1:16:39] Dr. Linda Bluestein: Perfect, perfect. Eco-friendly as well then.

[1:16:43] Terry Hyde: Yes, that's right. Thank you very much for having me on your podcast.

[1:16:48] Dr. Linda Bluestein: Well, wonderful. Thank you again so much, Terry, for coming on the program today. You have been listening to Bendy Bodies with the Hypermobility MD, and today my guest co-host has been Jennifer Milner, and this has just been such a great conversation. Terry, we can't thank you enough for sharing —

[1:17:07] Terry Hyde: My pleasure.

[1:17:08] Dr. Linda Bluestein: — your wisdom and knowledge with us. Yes.

[1:17:11] Terry Hyde: Well, great.

[1:17:11] Dr. Linda Bluestein: We'll catch you next time, and thank you again. Please go to bendybodies.org for links to all the episodes and to access the show notes. If you enjoyed this podcast, please share, leave a review, and consider rating us 5 stars. Don't forget to subscribe so you'll be notified of all new episodes. Feedback is greatly appreciated and can be emailed to [email protected]. Go to hypermobilitymd.com to sign up for my newsletter. My guest co-host Jennifer Milner can be reached at [email protected] — that's M-I-L-N-E-R. Thank you to Rhett Gill for production and sound editing, to Andrew Savino for composing our original music, and to Jennifer Arsenault for designing the Bendy Bodies website and cover artwork. This podcast is for informational purposes only and is not a substitute for medical advice. Please see your own medical team prior to making any changes to your healthcare. Thanks for tuning in, and we'll see you next time on Bendy Bodies with the Hypermobility MD.