Capturing Limitless Authenticity with Rachel Neville

[00:35] Jennifer Milner: Hello and welcome to Bendy Bodies with the Hypermobility MD, where we explore the intersection of health and hypermobility for dancers and other artistic athletes. This is Jennifer Milner, and I'm here with co-host Dr. Linda Bluestein.

[00:49] Dr. Linda Bluestein: Hello everyone, and before we introduce today's guest, we'd like to first remind you about how you can help us help you.

[00:57] Jennifer Milner: So first, subscribe to the Bendy Bodies Podcast and leave us a review. This is helpful for raising awareness about hypermobility and associated disorders. Second, share the Bendy Bodies Podcast with your friends, family, and providers. We really appreciate you helping us grow our audience in order to make a meaningful difference. This podcast is for you.
[01:13] Our guest today is Rachel Neville, a New York City-based commercial dance and movement photographer who is out to eradicate the starving artist conversation that so many dancers and artists have been taught to believe. Through the power of marketing, education, and stunning visuals, she believes dance companies, choreographers, dancers, and artists of all mediums can achieve the success, visibility, and notoriety they work so hard for. A multi-talented artist who utilizes the medium of photography, Rachel is a former dancer and teacher. Her images are informed as much from her dance history as they are from her innate creative vision and her clients' visual needs. Rachel, hello and welcome to Bendy Bodies.

[02:15] Rachel Neville: Hey there, thanks so much for having me.

[02:17] Jennifer Milner: Absolutely. Yeah, we're super excited. Let's just jump right in. Rachel, can you tell us how can artists walk that tension of producing content that interests and excites followers while not encouraging the more extreme or dangerous trends that we sometimes see on social media?

[02:38] Rachel Neville: Yeah, that's a loaded question. That's a great one to start off with because it really comes in two parts almost. Because we naturally and inherently as humans have a curiosity when we see things that are slightly abnormal. So I think that's where the general population and dancers specifically tend to get drawn into the massively contorted or hypermobile shots — how much backbend you've got, or how high can your legs go? Can they go beyond 180? And it's eye-popping because human bodies aren't really meant to do that. So it's that surreal effect that I think we all love, combined with gorgeous lines and geometry, that is just eye-catching.
[03:31] And it's really a little hard to get away from that sometimes because us as vendors, providers, whatever you want to call us — us that work in the industry — we know what goes into that. And we know the dangers behind that. We know that they're not often technically correct or safe to do. In fact, sometimes they're really dangerous to be doing over and over again. But they are what gets you noticed on social media often.
[04:00] And I think that became increasingly prevalent over the last 40 years in dance. I remember when I was training and Sylvie Guillem was the first one with the perfect 180, and we all went, oh my God. I wanted to be Sylvie Guillem when I was 12.

[04:29] Jennifer Milner: Didn't everybody?

[04:30] Rachel Neville: Yeah, that's it, right? And you see those shots and you're like, man, I want to look like that. But it's also — the physical aspect of dance is one thing, but the emotional and the narrative and the energy and the passion and the storytelling that comes through. I don't want to say that it took a backseat in the last 40 years, but certainly it kind of does. I mean, that's another topic of conversation, really.
[04:57] But that's where your question comes in — how do we manage that? Do we need to post that? Do we not need to post that? Do we create and cultivate an audience without those eye-popping shots? Can we do them all together? Or do we find what is our authentic self? And this is where I kind of lead my clients. I think the most important thing right now, especially in the oversaturated social media markets, is to find your authentic voice and really be strong and clear in it, and find your power in being really who you are and what you have to offer as a dancer. What is your it factor? What is your secret sauce? What are you really passionate about? And I think that goes just as far as an "oh my God, my hips look like they're going to pop" kind of shot.
[06:05] Does it necessarily get you the volume of followers and likes? If your goal is to be an influencer as opposed to an artist, then there's that other side of the conversation. Can you be an influencer and an artist at the same time? But it depends on what your goals are. It depends on where you want to land and what you're passionate about, for sure. Sorry, that was a really long roundabout way of answering that question. I'm not even sure I answered it, to be honest with you.

[06:38] Jennifer Milner: Well, the question is all about that tension. And as you said, can you be an influencer and an artist at the same time? That sort of tension exists every day today, and we see it in every form of social media. And so it sounds like you're saying that you do feel that responsibility to offer healthy contributions to the dance world — to try to find your own way of handling that tension and growing artistically and offering things that fulfill your creativity while still being a healthy reflection of what is possible?

[07:15] Rachel Neville: I think that's really necessary. You mentioned the term responsibility. Do I feel a sense of responsibility? I think I do to a certain extent, in that I was a dancer, I was a teacher, I'm a mom now, and there's so much that I see out there — things that I would see that I wouldn't necessarily want my kids doing. I have two girls. And that's not to say that it's not right for other people, but there are other choices. There are other ways of doing things. There are healthful ways of being. There are healthful ways of shooting. There are healthful and authentic ways that we can contribute to on social media and in society, and ways that we can lift up the art of dance rather than bringing it to the circus and the gymnastics — which, don't get me wrong, I like circus and gymnastics just as much as the next person.
[08:16] But I think knowing what your limits are and knowing what you want to project, and who you're trying to attract — that actually comes back to marketing 101. Who is your target audience? If you're trying to attract 9, 10, 11-year-olds to your feed, I have kids in that age range and I don't let them have phones. But if that's your goal, then the bendy crazy circus shots might be the thing to attract them. You have to consider who else you're attracting with those types of shots.
[08:55] If your target is to get into a ballet company and you want to be a principal dancer at such and such company, there's so much more that goes into that. And there are other ways of working your marketing to develop your following and the attention of the people that you want looking at your work. That would be, again coming back to that word, authentic to who you are as a dancer.

[09:30] Jennifer Milner: Well, and I think that all comes back to how can you be your authentic self? But as you said earlier, what's your goal here? And that's a conversation I have with my dancers regularly. If they come to me and say, "I want you to help me improve my flexibility" or "I want to get my oversplits" or whatever — I ask, why? What are we trying to get out of this?

Rachel Neville: Yes.

[09:49] Jennifer Milner: What are the Insta followers going to get you? Where are you going to be in your career in 10 years if you accomplish this? Like, what are we hoping for? So, do dancers come to you — which I'm sure they probably do — with a pose or an action or something that you feel is perhaps not the healthiest? How do you have that conversation with them? And how do you help steer what's going to happen next in the shoot?

[10:18] Rachel Neville: Great question. The way I work is incredibly different than a lot of other photographers. I very rarely have dancers that come to me with poses. It's an organic process, and because of my background and history — it's much like you, Jennifer — a dancer walks across the room and you know almost everything there is to know about their body before they even hit an arabesque. While the dancers are warming up, I know which foot is better than the other. I can see the muscle tone, the posture, the way they move. So because of that, when they step out onto my cyc, I already inherently have a sense of their level and possibly their strengths and weaknesses to a certain extent, not until they really start to move.
[11:22] And then I really only start working shots that are appropriate for that. Sometimes I'm surprised — sometimes they'll throw something out there and I'm like, whoa, I had no idea, let's work into that. But I don't usually have conversations steering people away unless, occasionally with competition kids, they'll do something and if it's clear that it's a little bit outside of their range, then sometimes we work into it. But if it's way outside of their range, I have ways and tricks to distract and get them around into something else that is also just as exciting as what they were wanting to do.
[12:21] And I'm super conscious of that when I teach other photographers how to shoot dance — it's something I talk about, how to deviate and redirect in case something's not there. But the second part of that conversation is that I build my shoots from the beginning. We never, ever, ever — and I want to say this again — we never, ever start with things that we're physically not ready for. You have to treat a shoot like a class. You would never do grand battement before you do pliés, ever. You're not ready for it. It's not going to be good. Nothing's going to feel right. And you're going to rip something. Just don't do it.
[12:55] It's the exact same thing for a shoot, where we build slowly — two feet on the ground, finding centers, finding supporting legs, finding lines, finding all the bits and pieces of the body as they are in space. Because it's very different to be working in front of a camera than it is in a studio or on a stage. It's a completely different setting. The things you focus on, it's not a mirror across from you. There's a camera, there are screens, there are lights — it's a totally different experience. And being able to find your center and find how to work it well in front of a camera takes time. Usually takes about half an hour to 45 minutes to sometimes even an hour or an hour and a half, depending on the dancer, to really understand the process and sink your teeth into it. At that point, then we have freedom to work alternate shots, or harder shots as we would suggest. I'm never going to throw anybody into a jump until at least halfway through the shoot, ever. It's Rachel rule number 78.

[14:07] Jennifer Milner: Well, I've had several dancers do shoots with you, as I've mentioned to you before, and the feedback that I consistently get — I get so much great feedback about you — but one of the things they love is that the shoot starts very slowly. They don't walk in and just start doing arabesque shots, which is what some photographers do. They said that the time you take with them helping them find which angle is going to work best, and which leotards are the most comfortable and flattering, and just the process you go through before you even start taking pictures — it has made them feel very comfortable and very like, "We're in this together, and now we're ready to invest in the next step." So I can see what you're saying with that.

[14:50] Rachel Neville: Yeah, it's so important to lay that foundation. The dancers that I shoot regularly — what I tell my dancers, generally speaking, is the first shoot is the hardest because there's so much that they have to learn in order to feel confident and comfortable: A, the process; B, how to do it; C, where their lines are and how to acclimate in front of the camera. And once that clicks, you can't unclick it. Once that happens, it's like all of a sudden the dancer is self-correcting. They kind of get it, the flow. All of a sudden the shots start coming faster and faster.
[15:28] So the first time is the hardest, taking about an hour to an hour and a half to get there. The second time, they still have to go through that process, but it's less time. By the third time, we're rocking and rolling. By the fourth time, it's like you're good to go and you will get good shots. But it does take time. It's like practice — you have to practice. It's not something that everybody steps in front of a camera and is just automatically amazing at. It doesn't matter how amazing a body looks or how flexible a body is.
[15:52] It has to do with the torque in each joint. It has to do with literally the shape of what your leg looks like, not how flexible it is — which angle it shoots at best. It has to do with how much twist you have in your spine. Can we put your arms over your head? Because if you're short from here to here and there's not enough space, like, all kinds of things like that. But once they learn that, and once they learn the systems and what works well and what doesn't work well, that's foundationally important to our whole conversation here.
[16:30] Because without that, dancers tend to throw themselves into things hoping, praying, kind of thinking it's going to be good. And we wind up putting dancers in dangerous positions because they don't know what they're doing. They don't know exactly where to be and how to place themselves and how to prep and how to set up a shot, so that they're doing things over and over again hoping for a different result, but not realizing that it's not going to be a good shot because they just didn't turn to the right angle. And that's where we wind up having dancers do shots over and over again, getting more and more frustrated, with more and more anxiety building up — "Why can't I get this?" And then we're losing technique and then we're running into injuries.
[17:18] So the foundational elements of how to shoot well in front of a camera are just as important as the buildup and the flow of the shoot, and are just as important as whether we're using our stomach muscles to strengthen our spine while we're whacking our leg. It's an all-encompassing process that is, I think, incredibly important for dancers to understand.

[17:43] Jennifer Milner: And the point about fatigue and injury is so, so important because that is such a huge risk factor for injury. And I don't know if a lot of people would normally associate that with a potential issue with a photo shoot. So I think that's fantastic that you're bringing that up because your approach is so well thought out, so methodical, and really trying to capture the essence of the dancer and not just a few flashy images.
[18:16] In terms of a dancer and their hypermobility and the long lines that can come with that — that can be a selling point to companies and shows. How do you help dancers capture the full extent of their lines but in a healthy way?

[18:32] Rachel Neville: So we build every shot that we work towards, and as I was mentioning earlier, we build the entire shoot leading up to it. There are sort of two components to that — three, really.
The first is that if I am looking for, say, a penché at the fourth or fifth or sixth shot in, I have to develop — it's much like, again, coming back to barre — you have to develop the supporting leg and you have to develop their understanding of the exact angle they'll need to be at in order to achieve a really good shot. So I'm building in the concepts they're going to need to get that shot from the very first moment they're walking in the door. And more specifically when they step out onto my paper or cyc, I'm leading them towards those types of things that I know we're going to need.
[19:25] The second part is in every individual shot, and this is why when people work with me, we're not working for 20 or 30 or 40 images in a session. We're working for a much smaller number of shots, because we really spend a ton of time on each shot and we build it. By that I mean we build out where the supporting leg is, we build out the working leg, and then when we've got those going, we fully flesh out exactly where the torso needs to be and what exact arm line needs to be — because all of this needs to be translated three-dimensionally into 2D. And so we have to manipulate lines to get that.
[20:09] By that I mean, for example, an arabesque: your fingers would be in line with your shoulder naturally, but oftentimes for shooting we have to bring the arm across and in front of the nose a little bit. We have to flatten things and shift for the perspective of the camera and the medium it's going to be seen on. But by doing that again methodically, so that we are really making sure dancers actualize the muscle memory that goes into creating a shot — because it's different than it would be on stage — we are able to make sure, A, that the technique is being shown to its best advantage, and B, that they're doing it in a healthful manner. They're not just going to whack an arabesque and then, 40 times later, be disappointed in the shot and not understanding why they're not getting it. So by utilizing the system I've developed over the last 10 years, we're placing everything, we're getting everything where it wants to be, we're setting up the shot correctly. They don't even attempt a movement without being correctly set — thereby maximizing their lines but also keeping in mind the safety mechanisms we need to build into a shot.
[21:29] But the third part — and this is the area I really love — is that by working through that system, you're really able to have the dancers feel confident and free to express themselves. Because there's not the anxiety of "I'm afraid I'm not going to look good" running on a loop. They know that they're going to look good, and they're confident and they're safe, which slows the brain down, which slows the whole process down, by which we can really focus in on the bits and pieces. And then their energy is able to sing, and we're not doing things in a dangerous way.
[22:08] That's amazing. Go ahead, Jen.

[22:13] Jennifer Milner: I love that such a big part of that is making them feel safe and confident, because all physical visual artists — whether it's dancers, skaters, gymnasts, circus artists — we are constantly judged for the way that we look. And it's so difficult to separate out us the commodity from us the human. And putting ourselves in front of a camera lens — I've said so many times, if YouTube had been around when I was dancing, I think I would have retired way sooner. Because I was a much better dancer than there's probably video proof of, so I'm safe. There's a different image in your head of what is actually going to be happening.
[22:52] So when someone walks into your studio, we are putting out — without words — what we're trying to do, and yet most of our training doesn't include teaching us how to do anything other than the technical aspect of it. So how do you help these artists express themselves? How do you help them find that place where they can express who they are and their emotional inner self in these photographs?

[23:18] Rachel Neville: I really love that question. The focus as a pre-professional dancer specifically — probably in other genres of movement as well — becomes so focused on the physical, as it needs to be. Especially nowadays, with the huge volume and range of what dancers are expected to master before they're company-ready. I mean, it's well beyond what it was when I was dancing. And I'm sure 10 years from now we're going to be flabbergasted one more time with what the expectations are.
[23:54] But because it keeps growing and growing, there's just not enough studio time. There's not enough hours in the day. We have all these increased expectations, but we're still limited to the 24-hour day. So what tends to get put by the wayside — not always, but often — is the artistic vision. It is the narrative. It is the why are we actually doing what we're doing? How are we communicating with the audience? What are we here to really achieve?
[24:26] So sometimes it's incredibly difficult to get dancers to break out of that. And the younger they are, the more difficult it is, because they're still in the formative stages of "it's my body, it's my body, it's my body." And then sometimes it's, "Oh, do you want me to smile or not smile?" That's about the extent you get for the younger ones.
[24:50] A large part of my demographic is 16 to 24-year-olds. At that stage, I think the most important thing is to have dancers know that you have their back — that you're not going to let them have shots that don't look good, that they don't look as technically strong as they absolutely possibly can. And that's something I instill in the dancers from the minute they come in the door.
[25:18] We always start with headshots first so I can teach them how to use their face and how we communicate about face. And they understand the tiny, tiny little differences in range — like the difference of a millimeter one side or another changes the shape of your nose. So we talk about these things so they start to understand the process, and that anxiety of "I just want to look good, I'm afraid I'm not going to look good" starts to calm down.
[25:46] Then when they are able to see the process by which we get the shots, and we get a few that they're like, "Wow, I didn't think I could look like that" — then they start to understand and trust in the process. And when they trust in the process, and trust in me, then the confidence naturally comes as we build out good shots.
[26:10] And it really only happens at this point: when they understand that they really are going to look good, that anxiety level, that psychological factor, comes down. So we're able to push through energy that is speaking to us more. We're able to do silly things — say the word "bubbles" and get them to brighten up. Or using your voice and inflection to push energy back and forth. Or using adjectives to bring through the energy, and keeping their target audience in mind. Do we need some that are happy? Do we need some that are sad? Do we need moody? Do we need neutral? That conversation can flow through. But you can't really get there until you calm the psyche down in relationship to "I'm afraid I'm not going to look good." Nothing happens until you get that.

[27:11] Jennifer Milner: That's beautiful — that that's the place it has to start — because you're absolutely right. It doesn't matter how pointy your feet are or how on top of your leg you are or anything, if you can't surrender that fear and surrender that control to the person behind the camera.
[27:25] So are there other things you wish a dancer knew before coming in to do a shoot with you? What would you like them to know — other than that you're not going to make them look bad?

[27:40] Rachel Neville: I think that the process takes time and it's different for everyone. I think that's one thing I wish all dancers would understand. They sometimes come in with expectations that, depending on their level and their background and their strength and flexibility and all those kinds of things — I think each one of those different segments would need to know something different.
[28:06] However, I think my hope is that they come in understanding that it's a process, and that it takes a little bit of time to understand and get into it, and to have patience with themselves. Because so many dancers come to this thinking, "Oh, I did a shoot outside and I threw up a leg and I kind of liked the shot — yeah, I can do this." It's not the same in a studio. You have nothing to distract from every last little bit of technique that you've got. And different cameras and different lenses and different locations and different distances — it's really different depending on how big you are in a shot. So just have patience and understand that it takes time to build your repertoire, your knowledge base, your expectations and understanding of what's about to happen.
[29:05] I really wish — and this is a big wish for me — that dancers would know more about marketing and how that first piece of the puzzle that we were talking about works. What are your expectations? What are you shooting? Why are you shooting it? If it's to further your career, that's one thing. If it's for you to pass around with your friends and just have fun, that's a different thing. For your mom's coffee table book, that's again something different. And each one of those different goals requires a different way of working.
[29:51] But lastly, I really wish dancers would come in and just be kind to themselves, be gracious. Understand that what makes a great shot is so often not just your technique — it's all the power and the energy and the expression and the authentic you. And how to get there is sometimes a little foreign to the dancers. So again, be kind and gracious with yourself, and pick working with photographers that will allow that to happen.

[30:34] Jennifer Milner: Absolutely. And dancers often feel voiceless. Can you suggest some ways that a dancer can communicate with a photographer during a shoot — express uncertainty, or say no to a certain pose or movement?

[30:50] Rachel Neville: That's a new concept for me, that dancers often feel voiceless. I don't find that with my dancers, because I encourage them to speak with me regularly and constantly from the beginning. But I also know that there are a lot of dancers that work with photographers who are not former dancers and are not teachers. So the process is different. And I imagine that's what you're really asking me — how to handle that.
[31:17] I think having as much clear and concise communication before the shoot happens is the best way to go. Knowing exactly what the expectations are. There are different types of shoots — if you're doing a test shoot with a photographer versus if you are paying for their services versus if a photographer approaches you and is going to pay you. These are all different circumstances. But the more you can communicate your expectations and understand the photographer's expectations down to a pretty granular level — what kind of poses do you want? What type of styling? Where are we going to be? How long are we going to be shooting? What do you expect out of the shots?
[32:11] How many images will I receive? What are my expectations of what you will do with the images afterwards? That's often a sticking point you should know about in advance, because photographers own copyright. So you want to know where and what is happening with those images.
[32:32] One thing that is coming up now with clients I've trained — some of the things I'm hearing back from them is to be very specific about timelines. It's not just "I'm going to have access to 20 images or 5 images or 100 images at the end of the shoot," but by when can I expect those? Because if that's part of your agreement and then you have to wait 6 months or a year, that's a problem.
[33:11] And lastly — I'm sure there's more than this, this is just off the top of my head — I think knowing and asking what their retouching policy is is important. Because there's a proliferation — is that how you say that word? — there's a proliferation of overly liquified shots going around right now. If you're not familiar with what that is, it's a Photoshop tool that has now been translated into apps where you can manipulate what you look like on your phone — make your legs look skinnier, change the shape of your feet, all that kind of thing. And you start to see photographers who are very used to a particular genre of work changing women's body shapes into different shapes. So what are their policies on that? What can you expect? What do you want? What's ethical? That's another conversation.
[34:32] Circling that whole conversation back around to what we've actually been talking about here — if it's a photographer new to dance, the dancer should be very specific about their needs in terms of safety. If you're shooting outside, make sure that it's safe. Make sure you're not being put into precarious positions that could potentially end your career or sideline your training for 6 months. You stand on a ledge that's 2 feet off the ground and maybe you feel comfortable because it's a foot wide, but you whack a leg, you fall, and there goes your ankle and you're out for 6 months. Was that shot worth it? Or are you shooting in a location where the ground is not stable, or there's not a really serviceable platform — it's just not safe. You don't think too much of it. You really want that shot. Your photographer says, "Oh my God, it's going to be really cool, let's just do 2 more." And then you pull something and you're out for 2 weeks or a month. Was it worth it?
[35:49] So I think safety first, and being able to communicate with your photographer right away about those types of expectations — do it in advance. Don't be shooting when you're too cold. We all know what that does to our muscles. If it's too cold outside, don't do it. It's not worth it.
[36:07] And then I think if you can communicate the process by which you're expecting to work, or ask the photographer: How do you get a shot? How many times do I need to do this? Are there alternate ways of working to make sure that — especially if you're working with a photographer new to dance and they're not sure of their timing — you find yourself whacking that leg 100 times? Maybe there are alternate ways to communicate to make sure that doesn't happen. I train my photographers to watch and observe so that you don't have to use counts, but counts might be a way to do that if they're not familiar. And then make sure you stipulate: "I really can only do this 3 more times. I can only do this 2 more times." Be really comfortable and confident in that. In fact, I ask the dancers when we're doing something really hard, "How many more do you have in you? You have 2? Great, we're going to do 1." Because you just can't take those chances.
[37:13] And this is such great information because, like you're saying, these are young dancers, in many cases, that if they do get an injury it can be life-altering or career-altering. In the heat of the moment, there's so much pressure — they want to please the photographer, they want to try to get that image. They're not used to saying no to choreographers or their teachers. So it's such an important conversation to have in advance, when they can really be thinking it through instead of going in less prepared and then having to make those decisions on the spot — maybe making the decision that's wrong for their body but better for the photographer.
[38:03] Yeah, listen, I push my dancers hard. I push them hard. They're sore after. But I am also a former teacher and I know how to work bodies, and I know what I'm looking for when I see the fatigue starting. I'm like, "That's it, you're done." "Oh no, I can do one more." "No, you're done."

[38:24] Jennifer Milner: Right.

[38:28] Rachel Neville: Dancers are not always aware of that. They're on an adrenaline high while we're shooting. They're excited — "Oh my God, this is so much fun, look at that shot, it's going to be so great." The adrenaline, more often than not, means I see the dancer's body fading before they can feel it. And that adrenaline high will have them push through it.
[38:47] So you asked me a little while ago, what do you wish they would know? You've got to listen to your body. You need to be really mindful. When it's done, it's done. When you can't do anymore, you can't do anymore — because you need to be in class tomorrow. So if you're working with a photographer who's not that savvy, be hyper aware of that. Bring a friend. That's one of the things in my program: you have to go with a friend. You never go alone, ever. I don't care how old you are — unless you've worked with that photographer 3, 4, 5 times and you feel comfortable. As females, we just — it's Rachel rule number 78 — you don't go alone.
[39:35] But then that gives you a second set of eyes. It helps to have somebody else to gauge and say, "Okay, you've done that 40 times. Is it really getting any better, or not?"

[39:51] Jennifer Milner: I'm so glad you said that because I do go along with some of my dancers on their photo shoots.

[39:57] Rachel Neville: Thank you.

[39:59] Jennifer Milner: Because even if it's a dance photographer, they may not always have the poses in mind. And a lot of times if I go with them, their photography specialty is not dance. So they may not have great poses in mind, or it may not be practical for my dancer because I know her body so well. Or the photographer will start taking a picture and I'll say, "Listen, if we can just move this a little bit, it's going to look—" so I very much enjoy being that extra set of eyes on the shoot. It is important to have somebody watching out for the dancer and being able to see things like the fatigue setting in, or "this is not a great shot for this dancer." So that's great that you said that.

[40:45] Rachel Neville: I have cheat sheets for the photographers that I've trained. If you've got wide shoulders, this. If you've got a short tibia or a short femur, this. So other photographers oftentimes come to the shoot with "I'd like to do this, I'd like to do this," and it's just not physically right for that particular dancer. And the reason I'm pointing that out is because dancers are such people pleasers — they'll keep trying and keep trying.
[41:17] The dancer needs to know, or it would be really helpful for them to know, what really shines on their body as well as what is not the best, and to refocus the photographers on what really looks good on them. That takes time and training. You need to work with somebody so you know your strengths and weaknesses. Over time, after many shoots, there are many dancers who weren't trained into shooting but just happen to know "this foot looks better like this" — those types of things.
[41:55] But most photographers don't know that and will continue to try to push you to it — or maybe they won't push you, but you will push yourself — to keep trying to achieve a shot that, really, if you just don't have that lateral twist in the spine, the quasi-attitude is just like — you can try to move the thigh, but it's not going to be there the way you would like it to be. So having that knowledge of yourself is really important.

[42:26] Jennifer Milner: Yeah. And I imagine sometimes people have different expectations and they think — like you're saying, with the quasi-attitude — "Oh, I really want that," but it's not the right fit for them.
[42:40] So if a dancer can't come to you, how can they best find a good photographer who will listen and bring out the best in their artistry?

[42:51] Rachel Neville: Great question. How do you find somebody like that? I've trained a lot of photographers throughout the United States now, and as we redesign our website, we will have a listing of who those are and where they are — coming to you shortly. It's on the list, just not the 911, it's the 908 thing.
I think it would be really helpful if we developed a set of questions for dancers that you could share on your website or blog post or wherever this podcast is hosted.

[43:39] Jennifer Milner: Great, that would be fabulous.

[43:39] Rachel Neville: That you should be asking before you sign on with a photographer. And depending on the answers that you get, you'll know how to work with that particular person. And again, it depends on your intention behind the shoot, right? Like, if it's what I call a candy shoot — you just want some pretty images for Instagram and it's a celebratory "I made it through the year, yay!" — that's one thing. And the level of scrutiny you apply may not need to be as precise.
[44:17] Versus if you've just spent $200,000 and 10 years of your life training — now you find somebody good. That's where about 70% of our clients fly into New York to work with us, because you're putting your entire career on the line. It's a sea of 5,000 dancers for 20 spots. The artistic directors and ballet masters are weeding through 700 applicants just to get into the audition, just to get seen. And that doesn't even get you into the company — that's just for trainee. The competition is fierce. So that's where you don't skimp out. That's where you do it right. Do your research and choose appropriately.

[45:14] Jennifer Milner: Well, we will put those questions in the liner notes for the podcast and make sure we get them up elsewhere, because that will be super helpful for us to share with our dancers. And I agree with you — it's so important. I tell all my dancers when they're moving from pre-professional to trainee or to studio company or whatever that next level is, I always say: go get your headshots, your arabesques, and your personal dance shot with Rachel. Because I know company directors look at the photos, and I know they can recognize really good photographers and say, "This person is serious, this person is working hard, they are investing." You want a great headshot, you want a great arabesque shot, and then that other shot — which is the you shot — you need somebody that's going to help get all of that across in one image. So you have to have somebody good to get that across. I agree with you wholeheartedly. That's the point where you should be investing in your career.
[47:23] Is there anything — go ahead.

Rachel Neville: The artistic directors start to know, and it's an added bonus for them if they've got people working for them that know how to shoot. It makes great marketing images. It sells more tickets. Unfortunately, it's the other side of the beast — if you have a certain following and you can be a draw, we don't like to talk about it, but it's a thing. You're more attractive as an employee if you have subsets of skills. Myself being an employer, people who come to me and have alternate skills that we can utilize in different parts of the business — it's very attractive. So it's an investment in your career, but it's also an investment in having them understand that you take this other side of the business just as seriously as you do your turnout.

[47:23] Jennifer Milner: Absolutely. Well, is there anything that we have not covered that you wanted to make sure you talked about today?

[47:29] Rachel Neville: I wanted to talk about the need for a solid understanding of what your core does in a photo shoot.

[47:43] Jennifer Milner: Yes! I'm like, yes! Yes! This will be a whole other podcast.

[47:49] Rachel Neville: Come on, let's do it, right?

[47:52] Jennifer Milner: Yes, please.

[47:57] Rachel Neville: So many dancers are so used to throwing legs around and tossing into this and tossing into that. Your ballet teachers talk about this, all of your contemporary teachers talk about this, but if your core is not strong to protect, you don't have the ability to use your upper body in an expressive manner because everything is chunked and high and tense. And the secondary part of that — it's three parts really — is that your lines don't look as good when your upper body is tense, nor can you really lengthen through your legs to the extent they really need to be in a photograph if everything is tense.
[48:43] And if I could say one thing about preparing for a shoot, it would not be to diet down. Can I pound my hand on the table any more than that? It would be to say, "I've got a shoot coming up. I'm going to put extra effort into my core, from the pelvic floor — pelvic floor, right — all the way up through between the shoulder blades, that whole length in there." That's what you need to focus on before you come in, because without that, we can't lengthen. It's so, so important, and healthfully so.

[49:28] Jennifer Milner: Right, right. And I would add to that — so many people think working your core is like doing crunches, and it's not. It just makes you tighter and more restricted. Not just working your core, but understanding: you can exercise the muscles, but if you don't figure out how to use them in class and in the movement, it's pointless. When people tell me they want a higher développé, I say, "Well, what does your core look like?" Because I don't care how high you can lift your leg — we have to work on stabilizing your pelvis before your leg can go higher.

[49:57] Rachel Neville: Yes.

[49:59] Jennifer Milner: So it's about — if you've got a six-pack that I can see, well, what's it doing?

[50:08] Rachel Neville: Right.

[50:09] Jennifer Milner: So it's crossing that line between the gym workout or your crunches in your room into the studio and then into a performance situation like the photography studio. For me, I talk about it as your center — how you can collect your center and let your body move around it, and have this energy you move around, finding that fluidity of movement through the stability of that center. That's the tricky part. Dancers are like, "I need to exercise this muscle." Okay. But it's that more complex transition into actually being able to use it through a movement for a reason.

[50:47] Rachel Neville: Nobody talks about that. That is the key. How many times have I shot an arabesque where they were like, "I just need to pull up my stomach?" And I'm like, well, can we talk about that? Because if you're bending in the opposite direction — yes, we want you to be held and strong, but it's almost oxymoronic — that inhibits the motion and the movement. So how do we lengthen and strengthen and hold, but whilst being in motion? That is a conversation I don't hear often enough. I would love — if you haven't already done a podcast on that, I would love for you to, and then we will broadcast it to everybody that comes in my studio.

[51:32] Jennifer Milner: Well, arabesque is the same way. If people want a higher arabesque, the first thing we have to do is figure out how to support from the front in a fluid way and how to use your leg rather than your back, to start to maximize what you're trying to get out of it and not just crank into your lower back. So yes, we could talk about this for another 2 hours, but like you said, that is a podcast for another day, and that has given us a great idea.

[51:55] Dr. Linda Bluestein: We definitely do need to talk about that, because the more hypermobile you are, the stronger your true core muscles need to be. Not your six-pack, like you said, and I think there's a lot of misconception that because people can do all kinds of other things, therefore they must have a strong core. I have watched lots and lots of dancers in class and in rehearsal, and you can tell that they're not able to stabilize their spine in that fluid way that Jen described. So that you're working with your hypermobility and not just relying on it.

[52:42] Rachel Neville: Right.

[52:43] Dr. Linda Bluestein: Yeah, going back 40 years when I was training — I am hypermobile, I'm a bendy girl. Gumby, as I actually use the term in my studio. We did tons of cross-training and hardcore strengthening, but then when it comes time to put that into action, it's not the conversation. It never was the conversation. It was "you need to do more sit-ups, you need to do more Pilates, more core work." And that's one thing, but if you can't transition that into what we're just talking about here — that's where injury prevention lives, and you get better and stronger and become a more fluid and expressive dancer. So I really, really want that podcast, you guys.

[53:48] Jennifer Milner: We may put out a workshop for that instead — a Bendy Bodies workshop. That might be a great idea.

[53:50] Dr. Linda Bluestein: That would be a great business idea.

[53:55] Jennifer Milner: And then we could demonstrate on video and all of that. That would be amazing. Rachel is inspiring us — because what's the point if you get great lower abs but you can't apply it to those développés at the start of White Swan? What's the point, right?
[54:17] Well, this has been fantastic. Where can people find you?

[54:18] Rachel Neville: Where can people find me? Here. I'm in New York. We're at RachelNeville.com. We're on Instagram — no longer at Rachel Neville Photo. That Instagram feed, which was a strong source where people were easily able to find us, was hacked and disappeared last month. So we're now over at Rachel Neville Studios. And my personal is Rachel__Neville on Instagram. We're on Clubhouse. We're on Facebook, but nobody's really on Facebook anymore. We're kind of everywhere.

[54:22] Jennifer Milner: Excellent.

[55:10] Dr. Linda Bluestein: Perfect. Thank you so much for having me. This was actually incredibly fun, and I just can't wait to have that training available to dancers. I'm following up with you next week. People need this.

[55:24] Jennifer Milner: When my dancers schedule a time with you in New York, I'm like, how crazy would it be for me to fly up just to go to the photo shoot with them? They're like, "Do it!" Which of course I never do, but I've always wanted to sit in on one of your shoots.

[55:38] Rachel Neville: Which is what's happening now because of what's sort of developed in our studio over the last year. I had a couple of large commercial shoots last year. In order to accommodate clients that were in different parts of the world and couldn't fly in for the shoot as they normally would, we have a whole system for doing things remotely. So we often do shoots via Zoom — I don't shoot via Zoom, and there are other people that do that — but having you be a fly on the wall while we're shooting, we can absolutely do that. I want to do that.

[56:16] Dr. Linda Bluestein: Oh my gosh, I want to do that. I really want to fly there and be there, but in the meantime, yeah, that would be amazing.

[56:28] Rachel Neville: That's so cool. Yes, I would love to do that.

[56:31] Dr. Linda Bluestein: We can absolutely hook you up with that.

[56:34] Rachel Neville: Awesome. That would be fabulous.

[56:37] Jennifer Milner: You have been listening to Bendy Bodies with the Hypermobility MD. Today we have been speaking with Rachel Neville, New York City-based commercial dance and movement photographer. Rachel, thank you so much for taking the time to come on Bendy Bodies and for sharing your wisdom with us. We really appreciate it.

[56:53] Rachel Neville: Anytime. Thanks so much for having me. We really enjoyed it.

[56:59] Dr. Linda Bluestein: Thank you for joining us for this episode of Bendy Bodies with Hypermobility MD, where we explore the intersection of health and hypermobility for dancers and other artistic athletes. Please leave us a review on your favorite podcast player. Remember to subscribe so you won't miss future episodes. Be sure to subscribe to the Bendy Bodies YouTube channel as well. Thank you for helping us spread the word about hypermobility and associated conditions. Visit our website www.bendybodies.org for more information.
[57:29] For a limited time, you could win an autographed copy of the popular textbook Disjointed: Navigating the Diagnosis and Management of Hypermobile Ehlers-Danlos Syndrome and Hypermobility Spectrum Disorders just by sharing what you love about the Bendy Bodies Podcast. On Instagram, tag us at @bendy_bodies and on Facebook at Bendy Bodies Podcast.
[57:55] The thoughts and opinions expressed on this podcast are solely of the co-hosts and their guests. They do not necessarily represent the views and opinions of any organization. The thoughts and opinions do not constitute medical advice and should not be used in any legal capacity whatsoever. This podcast is intended for general education only and does not constitute medical advice. Your own individual situation may vary. Do not make any changes without first seeking your own individual care from your physician. We'll catch you next time on the Bendy Bodies Podcast.