Ensuring Longevity: Screening, Strengthening and Supporting with Physiotherapist Moira McCormack

[00:11] Dr. Linda Bluestein: Welcome to Bendy Bodies with the Hypermobility MD. This is your host, Dr. Linda Bluestein, former ballet dancer, board-certified anesthesiologist, specialist in treating hypermobility disorders, and medical director at Wisconsin Integrative Pain Specialists. Today, Jennifer Milner joins me as a guest co-host. Jennifer is a certified Pilates trainer specializing in dancers and post-injury recoveries. Our guest today is Moira McCormack, physiotherapist for the Royal Ballet in London. Moira has been working for many years as a dance specialist physiotherapist with all age groups and now works part-time to allow PhD studies at University College London. Her interests are hypermobility in dance, classical ballet technique, and reducing the risk of injury in the profession. She has also worked in musical theater and contemporary dance, appreciating all dance genres. Moira was trained at the Royal Ballet School, graduating to the Royal Ballet Company. After a dance career including National Ballet of Canada and London Festival Ballet, she completed teacher training in classical ballet, working internationally before embarking on a physiotherapy career. Moira lectures for the Master's in Science program in Sports Medicine and the Master's in Science program in Performing Arts Medicine at UCL.

[01:41] Jennifer Milner: I would love to know — we have seen just in the recent few years social media has exploded, and as it has kind of solidified itself in the world, do you see audience expectations changing for a dance aesthetic based on what they're getting from social media?

[02:01] Moira McCormack: Well, I think audiences are more demanding now. They do want to see the aesthetic, but they also want to see fabulous new challenging, difficult choreography. And the choreographers are now delivering. They're coming up with some of the most exciting, wonderful choreography that when they challenge the dancer with, the dancers love. They find it interesting and they want to do it. And a lot of the time it's very positive because if it's well rehearsed, then the dancer goes with it and strengthens in each of those challenges. And so a lot of the time it is very positive, exciting for the dancers, creative for the dancers, and exciting for the audience. So a lot of that I love and celebrate.
[03:10] We just have to be careful that we do still understand that dancers never say no. They will always keep going. And they will never say, "Oh, I did so much yesterday and I'm really quite sore. I think I need to back off a bit today." Well, number one, the choreographer isn't going to understand that.

[03:35] Jennifer Milner: Right.

[03:36] Moira McCormack: And the dancer hasn't been clever enough to say, well, what is my schedule this week? Where can I really push? Where can I pull back? Know where those very challenging rehearsals are going to be and save themselves for those and pull back on other things. So dancers will never say no, so they'll go in and go, oh my God, I will have to do this all over again, just like I did yesterday, and I'm not really up to it, but I'll have to be because the demand is there. And then that's when the strain starts to set in, and they haven't managed to recover from the day before.
[04:16] And that maybe is where the choreographers need to understand that if they organize their rehearsals really well, they can use some dancers some days and some dancers the other days and balance it all out. Because we know that the dancer will not look after themselves, and if we want to get that dancer to the first night at their peak — not over their peak, but at their peak — and get the whole thing to come together for that first night, that's when I think choreographers and those people rehearsing the dancers need to really think things through and almost see ahead and protect dancers from overdoing it.

[05:09] Jennifer Milner: Yes, because as you said, if someone comes in very sore from Tuesday's rehearsal, well, Tuesday's rehearsal was probably not with the same choreographer that Wednesday's rehearsal will be with. So Wednesday's choreographer will say, well, I don't care that you're sore from yesterday. Today is my time with you. I need to work with you. So institutionally, taking a look at the schedule and trying to protect the dancer a little more is definitely important.

[05:35] Moira McCormack: Yeah. It's still hard because it's a creative process and each person taking the particular rehearsal will need 100%. And I think that's also where the artistic management have to understand that maybe 100% is just too much every single day. And there are times when a rehearsal could be marked — you could take a breather — or when you really have to pull the whole thing together and see what those dancers can do, then it's time for 150%.

[06:10] Jennifer Milner: Yes, absolutely.

[06:12] Moira McCormack: But, you know, we say, well, very experienced dancers know how to do this, they're very professional. I don't actually see evidence of that. Our most devoted and loyal dancers will still go overboard and do too much and regret it.

[06:32] Jennifer Milner: Yes, absolutely, because that's who they are and that's what they want to do, and it's hard for them to know how to hold back and not give everything that they have. Yes.

[06:39] Moira McCormack: And sometimes the most experienced professionals will — if there's a big urgent change in the casting and more rehearsals are required — I've had two instances where the principal dancer has been working so hard they have forgotten to eat and forgotten to hydrate because they've been trying to pull it all together before the performance, and they've gone on for the performance and suffered really badly. So it happens to the best.

[07:21] Jennifer Milner: That's comforting to know that it happens to the best of them. So I know we started talking about how social media informed the audience expectations, but it definitely informs the young dancers as well. And overstretching and hyper splits and incredibly insane positions are all over social media right now. Do you have advice for dancers who think that overstretching is the path to better flexibility and a better profile in their professional dance career?

[07:56] Moira McCormack: Well, watch social media, see what's going on, be in there, know what's being peddled around, but be extremely critical. And if you're unsure of anything, ask your teacher. Discuss it with your teacher, what you've been seeing and ideas that have been promoted on social media.
[08:18] I saw something not so long ago that was very distressing. A dancer was being pushed into — we know that hypermobile knees, hyperextended knees are difficult to teach, especially with a beautiful foot on the end of a hypermobile leg. It's what lots of dancers want, but it's very difficult to strengthen and very difficult to control and very difficult to teach. And to look at social media and see a professional dancer being pushed into a hyperextended position in her knee, completely off-center — even the dancer, after she was standing in that position for a very long time with a teacher, came out of the position and started rubbing her knee because you could see that she was going to develop anterior impingement of that knee if she was going to stand like that for any length of time at all. Something like that really does disturb me. So it's watching those presentations with a great deal of criticism. That's all I can say because it's uncontrollable.
[09:33] You also asked about audiences wanting the aesthetic. The Vaganova School in Saint Petersburg has always selected their students for those perfect aesthetic proportions, so that's been going on throughout history.

[09:53] Jennifer Milner: Yes.

[09:53] Moira McCormack: And I'm seeing, over here in Europe, more evidence of it — that dancers are being selected for those proportions, the very long legs, the short trunk, the long neck, small head — very Balanchine, of course.

[10:13] Jennifer Milner: Yes.

[10:13] Moira McCormack: And we're seeing more of it here, but on top of all of that, there's hypermobility. They want the flexibility as well.

[10:22] Jennifer Milner: Yes.

[10:23] Moira McCormack: So you put all of that together — a long leg, a hyperextended knee, very flexible point position, a very flexible spine — you put that picture together and that is one of the most vulnerable physiques to have to stabilize and strengthen. And so we're really up against it in our healthcare teams trying to look after dancers. We're up against it because we have the most vulnerable physiques to deal with, and vulnerable physiques who are being asked to do more and more challenging choreography.

[11:07] Jennifer Milner: Yes, yes. And the audience requests what it sees, and the choreographers respond, and the dancers dig deeper, and then it sort of continues to feed itself. I agree with you completely.

[11:21] Moira McCormack: It's not always a bad thing because we're creating. Fantastic choreography is a thing of beauty and excitement, but we do have to make sure that we give them such a healthy basis from which to train like that.

[11:40] Jennifer Milner: Yes, absolutely. And I think the healthy basis that we are able to start from now comes from the amount of research that has come out in the past 10 to 20 years on hypermobility and how much we have moved forward in that in dance medicine. And you are absolutely one of the leading researchers. I fangirl over your research articles when they come out because I have learned so much from the work that you have done. You do have a nice body of research. Is there anything that has surprised you to come out of your research? Anything that you've seen and thought, oh, that's not what I thought would be the case?

[12:16] Moira McCormack: Well, I am still a bit disappointed in how we're not understanding each other so well. The people in science and in healthcare and the artistic managements and all the ex-dancers who become part of the artistic management — how we still don't really understand each other yet. And the dancer, of course, is the one that loses out. Just because of workload, recovery, giving the time to cross-train the dancer rather than hours and hours of rehearsal leading straight into a performance. We know that we've got to keep on churning out high-level performances, bring in the audiences, make the programme throughout the year interesting, novel, exploratory, experimental. So we know that all has to happen, and it's hard to deliver all of that with dancers who are human beings and cannot function like machines.
[13:39] But I think we all understand that, and we're all under certain stress and strain to deliver. But we keep trying and we keep trying to understand each other.

[13:48] Jennifer Milner: And that's the best that we can do — to try to keep bringing both sides of the table together, because it's the dancer that both sides are trying to serve ultimately. At least we hope so, right?
I know there has been so much conversation about screening dancers for possibility of injury and screening dancers with hypermobility and trying to predict who's going to get injured and what we can do. Do you do regular screening for dancers specifically for hypermobility, or is it just something that you can see eyeball-wise? Do those screening results change the sort of workload that they would take on, or perhaps what levels they would be considered for company-wise? Is there screening like that that goes on?

[14:40] Moira McCormack: No, we don't necessarily screen for hypermobility. Our dancers coming to the company — the new ones — are screened so that we know what past injuries have happened, because that's one of the main risks of developing an injury. They're all young, so age is another predictor of injury, so we don't have that problem. Hypermobility we take on board, and that's covered in the initial screen when they come into the company, and they are pointed in the direction of what is there to help them. And I like to say it's performance enhancement rather than anything else.

[15:19] Jennifer Milner: I say the exact same thing.

[15:20] Moira McCormack: It's going to make you dance better, and we know that if they dance better, they're not going to get so injured. So that happens at the beginning, and then we do a yearly screen, and our screening has got smaller and smaller and more precise. There's specific things we want to know. We want to remind them and ourselves of any past injuries, and then — because we traditionally have a high level of foot and ankle injuries in dance — we want to know that their calf stamina is good enough. So we look at single leg rises to make sure that they can get a certain number done without fatigue.
[16:11] Our dance scientists in the gym — we're very lucky to have a force plate — will be looking at the single leg jump and making sure that both sides are the same, and if they're not, that can immediately be worked on. Then dancers are videoed doing a single knee bend so that we know that the hip is stable, and they do a single leg hop, and we video the pelvis and the hip again to make sure weaknesses aren't creeping in. So it's quite a small screen but it's a very good way of bringing the dancers in at the beginning of every year and reconnecting with them, having a chat, knowing what's gone on the year before, and looking at certain tests.
[17:15] We know our dancers well — they come to the Company and they stay for a long time. The same thing goes on at the Upper School. They're at the school for three years, so the screening is well monitored, and from that screen they are immediately given the results and the advice of where they need to go to deal with any deficits that have been observed. The dancers are very cooperative. And we usually start off at the beginning of every season — end of August — with a good positive plan for each dancer.

[18:01] Jennifer Milner: That's fantastic. And it sounds like such a simple, small screen — as you said, you've gotten it quite narrowed down to just a few tests that can tell you so much and help the dancer feel like you have their best interest at heart. You can start the season off well and try to have a plan for the whole year rather than trying to address each issue as it comes up. That's great.

[18:27] Moira McCormack: Yes, it's a good way of us all getting together and them realizing, there's all this at my fingertips to help me be a better dancer.

[18:36] Jennifer Milner: Yes. We spoke a little bit earlier about young hypermobile dancers and how to work with them and help them start to take care of themselves. We don't often talk about hypermobile dancers later in their career. Is there any advice you give to hypermobile dancers who have had a successful career and how to try to continue on as they get older?

[19:01] Moira McCormack: Oh yes, because it's never too late to build something else into your physique, into your body. It doesn't matter how old you are, you can get stronger. And you can get very subtly stronger in areas that have been a problem for years. An ankle that's been a problem for years and you've started to just accept — there's an osteochondral defect in there, I saw it on MRI, it's not going to get better, my ankle's a bit sore, I can't do this, I can't do that, keep away from this, keep away from that, and then I can just make it work. With the right advice and the right patience, you can put strength into that ankle as long as you start to put the strength in at the right level, which may be very, very low level.
[19:58] But if you put the strength in — just certain balance exercises, and then balance exercises in fondu, and then balance exercise on a quarter point, and then look again at the technique and look at just how you're closing into fifth. Is there a subtle rotation going on in that ankle? Because that's what may actually be stopping you from moving on.
[20:32] I was working with an older dancer — I work from time to time with her, and I learn from her all the time, it's fantastic. We've started to get an ankle that's been a problem for years stronger, and she can see the difference and she can feel the difference. And she's doing a lot of performances and starting to feel in control again. Not, "Oh well, I'll just keep away from that and I will manage." It's, "No, I know I can do it now, and I know what's going to keep me going, and I know what I'll resort to the next morning. I'll do my exercises, get totally organized before I go into class, and then I'll do my class, and then afterwards I'll do more strength work, really try and load it a bit more, and then into my rehearsal."
[21:25] It's never too late, and as dancers get older, you need to do more and more of that sort of thing to hold it all together, because every dancer has accumulated a certain number of — I call them scars — throughout their career. Nothing is a mystery. Nothing is insurmountable. Nothing is unmanageable as long as you understand what's going on and what you can do about it. But the bad news is older dancers have to work harder as they get older.

[23:09] Jennifer Milner: But it's so encouraging to hear that it's never too late. And for a dancer to know — I have these things, I've lived with them for so long, I'll just see if I can outlast them until I'm ready to retire. But to know, just do something, start somewhere, get help with one thing, and then it's this, and then it's fixing your closure to fifth, and then it's increasing the strength. It can feel overwhelming figuring out where to start, but you're absolutely right, it is never too late to do that.

[23:42] Moira McCormack: And it's so encouraging when you do go, "Oh, that relevé is starting to come back." It's so encouraging.

[23:50] Jennifer Milner: It's such a beautiful feeling, yes. With dance teachers — you wrote a fantastic paper, I would say guide, Managing Joint Hypermobility: A Guide for Dance Teachers. I print it out and hand it to pretty much every studio I work with because it's so brilliant, and hopefully we'll have a link to that. But for dance teachers trying to figure out how to work with hypermobile dancers who don't have access to a large body of dance scientists and dance medicine specialists, do you have advice for those teachers who are really wanting to learn more about how to work with those hypermobile dancers?

[24:33] Moira McCormack: I do feel that the young hypermobile dancer takes a bit longer to understand and get the movement patterns into their bodies because I think the proprioception often isn't as accurate as maybe the rest of the class, and they're often slow at strengthening and a little bit slower than everyone else, and they'll be slower to go en pointe. They won't be able to manage it the way a stiffer type of ankle can. So I think teachers need to be patient and say, it's going to take longer.
[25:16] And they're always worth looking after because if you're putting stability into a hypermobile body, it's going to benefit them in every part of their lives. It's a huge benefit to give a child an understanding of stability and alignment, and therefore protection of the joints.
[25:49] So I would say for a dance teacher, it is being absolutely demanding of perfect alignment at all times, keeping legs low and going for control rather than range. Going for proximal stability, trunk stability, pelvic stability, and that control of the hip. If it's ballet they're working in, then it's get that control of turnout. Do not go for the range and a perfect first or fifth, even if the child can actually achieve that. They won't be able to achieve it dynamically, they won't be able to in movement. So keep it all very conservative and well aligned, and look after those young feet. It will pay off in the end.
[26:49] I mean, there's nothing different — we demand that from every child in a ballet class — but particularly the hypermobile ones who lack proprioception and sort of innate stability. So I would say: understand the body and have a good idea of the connective tissue stretchiness, but also have a good idea of the morphology of the joints, the shape of the joints. You can find a hypermobile physique that has a limited amount of external rotation in the hip, a limited turnout, just because it's not a shallow joint, it's deep, and not that flexible, whereas the rest of the body can be very flexible. So you've got to understand that physique and make sure you know as much about it as you can. I know that goes for every physique in your class, but it is the hypermobile ones that tend to fail first if they're allowed to work without perfect control.

[28:04] Jennifer Milner: Right, and to be allowed to go unchecked. And I know that for me personally, I've seen far more hypermobile dancers and dancers with connective tissue disorders like EDS since I have started working with pre-professional and adolescent dancers. In the professional realm, working with New York City Ballet and such, I just didn't see as many of them, and I have noticed that there are more at younger ages, partly because there is a natural attrition injury-wise and aches-and-pains-wise. Would you agree with that?

[28:43] Moira McCormack: Yes, I think I would. I don't see as many, and you are seeing far more adolescent dancers than I am, so I would definitely go along with that — that's why I can't really comment the way you can.

[29:01] Jennifer Milner: Sure. Well, you listed some really concrete points for teachers looking to work with hypermobility: keep the legs low, be able to control your range, hip proximal stability. Teachers need to understand the body and understand the connective tissue and the shape of the joints. And I loved what you said about how dynamic achievement is different than static achievement, and being able to educate the dancers on that.
[29:30] In the US, we have competition schools that I don't think are quite as popular in the UK. We see a fair amount of schools that have more of the picture in their head — trying to come up with these beautiful images that will wow the judges and give them the trophy. So a lot of times we see that more conservative teachers may not do as well in the competitions because they're not pushing their kids into those end ranges. Do you have competition schools in the UK? Is it as big? Do you see those same kinds of issues?

[30:14] Moira McCormack: There are a few competitions, but we Brits are not very competition-minded. And I think it's very sad when you do see wonderful talent being pushed into unrealistic positions, because more often than not you won't be seeing them again — they will wear themselves out and they'll fail. And the really strong basis has not been put in the technique to give them a springing point up into a career. So when that basis is not there, we will fail.
[31:05] We do, in the Royal Ballet Company and the School, have competition winners who elect for their prize to come to the Royal Ballet School — to come as a young student joiner in the Company — and they often need a lot of sorting out. They will need to be almost retaught. So one of our great strengths in the Company and in the School is to be able to give a dancer who needs technical sorting out a one-to-one regular class. The dancer is taken through with a coach, the technique is broken right down, and they are retrained — and it's all explained to them why they're being retrained and what the theory is behind it, so that they can go back into normal class and use all those theories and understand them. I feel that's terribly important.
[32:17] I was chatting with one of the coaches the other day saying I'd love every dancer in the company to go into a one-to-one once a month and just do a little revisit, because everyone has technical problems, everyone has stuff that needs sorting out, regardless of where you are in your career. Just go back to the basics and revisit a few things. That opportunity is there in our company and anyone can take them up on it. But mostly that one-to-one is for rehabbing after injury.

[32:57] Jennifer Milner: Yes, but wouldn't it be great if it happened before injury?

[33:00] Moira McCormack: Yes, that's what I would like.

[33:01] Jennifer Milner: So that there was no injury.

[33:03] Moira McCormack: Yes, just once a month, let's just have a little technique check.

[33:08] Jennifer Milner: Yes, well, and it sounds like you're saying that a lot of times — and there are some lovely competition schools out there, so I don't mean to paint them all with the same brush — but a lot of times schools, whether they're competition or ballet, because there's competition in the ballet world as well, might perhaps even unknowingly be sacrificing technique for the aesthetic, for trying to get that certain look. And going back and breaking the technique down and getting back to basics may be the key to preventing injury or even coming back from an injury as well. Is that fair to say?

[33:42] Moira McCormack: Yes, absolutely. And I'm not knocking competition schools or competitions either, because for a young dancer to get up on a stage and do something really difficult in front of a huge audience is a wonderful experience, and it's something you take with you into your career, and it gives you that extra confidence to say, well, I've already done this, I've already been up there. It's just that we would like all that to be done with great care and understanding.

Jennifer Milner: Absolutely.

[34:15] Moira McCormack: And subtlety.

[34:18] Jennifer Milner: So if parents are looking to find a school and they're looking at social media and these teams have won a lot and this school has a lot of competition placements, they can take some of that into account. But since a lot of places don't have access to the dance medicine and dance science team like the Royal Ballet does, what advice would you give to parents trying to choose a school? How can they try to find a school that will give their child that well-rounded approach?

[34:47] Moira McCormack: A school that does provide healthcare is a school that realizes the importance of it. And a school that will push a certain amount of finance in that direction means it's a school that has actually thought things through in a very realistic way, because we know that especially in full-time classical ballet training, dancers get injured. It is just part of it, and we can talk about prevention — pretty impossible. We can talk about reduction, that's more realistic, reduction of injury — but dancers will suffer at some point. And so if the school that your child is electing to go to does not have a healthcare department, at least align yourself with a local physiotherapist who comes recommended and you know that you can refer to for advice, health checks, and maybe yearly screening if you think that would be a good idea. At least have the advice from a recommended professional.

[36:05] Jennifer Milner: Yes, that's great. That's a great place to start. You have written a book, Anatomy, Dance Technique and Injury Prevention, which is now in its fourth edition. Was there anything specific that led you to write this book and want to get that information out there?

[36:21] Moira McCormack: Well, first of all, it was Justin House who started that book off. I was involved in the last two editions. Justin was a wonderful orthopaedic surgeon who worked with the Royal Ballet School for many, many years, and I worked with him for many years. He was actually the doctor who did my first screen before I was accepted into the Royal Ballet School, so he knew me as a student, and then he knew me as a physiotherapist, and then we worked together.
[36:57] I loved the idea of technique and injury prevention. It was first of all written to allow teachers to access a little bit more about injuries and diagnosis and ways of treating, and less so for students. I think students don't think about injuries until they've actually experienced them. It's also useful for physiotherapists who are working in dance for the first time — it's a good way to dip in and learn a bit about technique. It's quite an old book, it's not peer-reviewed, all of those things, but it is one of its kind. It will need updating at some point, but it's a useful book. And I loved working on it with Justin.

[37:56] Jennifer Milner: That's great, and we are grateful for books like that, for sure. So what are you hoping to dig into deeper next? You mentioned you're doing part-time work with the Royal Ballet to have more time for research. What is coming up, and what sorts of studies do you think are most important for the future? What are you looking to have happen next in the ballet research world?

[38:20] Moira McCormack: Well, with a PhD you tend to get microscopically involved with things, and you can't change the world either. What I'm concentrating on at the moment is looking at screening tests and how reliable they are, because we all do them but we don't know how reliable they are — inter-rater reliability, intra-tester reliability. We see so many papers coming out where the test was done, this is what we got, and this was the basis of our research, and really you're thinking, did you actually look at reliability? Can we really trust the rest of your research, because you didn't look at the reliability? So I'm doing that at the moment.
[39:12] The first part of my research was actually looking at the type of physiques that are being selected into the profession, and that's where I discovered that all the artistic people wanted flexibility and proportion and beautiful feet. Beautiful feet came up all the time, as well as small head and long neck — which my supervisors found very amusing. It's not amusing, it's fact. Just go and look. And they have, and they go, "Oh, you're right." So all that aesthetic stuff was being demanded and chosen by our artistic managements, while all our physiotherapists and doctors and strength trainers and Pilates trainers were wanting strength, stability, and stamina — and we weren't actually seeing along the same lines. So that was interesting, if perhaps predictable.
[40:31] And then I am moving through my screening tests to — I'd like to look more at injury prevention in the hypermobile physique. I don't know if it's going to be part of my PhD or whether it will come post, but we'll see.

[40:50] Jennifer Milner: Well, whenever it comes, we will be grateful for it.

[40:53] Dr. Linda Bluestein: Definitely.

[40:55] Jennifer Milner: Is there anything else you wanted to add to what we've talked about today? And also, where can people find you and find out more about your work?

[41:04] Moira McCormack: Well, I can always be contacted through the Royal Ballet Company. I think I'm probably contactable through University College London as well. The website where I'm working is the Institute of Sport, Exercise and Health, part of UCL. So if anyone has questions, I can do my best.

[41:29] Jennifer Milner: That's awesome.

[41:30] Dr. Linda Bluestein: Fabulous. Well, this has been such a great conversation. I certainly learned a lot, and I know that our listeners will be just thrilled to get the information. So thank you so much, Moira McCormack, for coming on the program today. And Jennifer Milner, thank you so much for being a guest co-host today on the show.

[41:53] Jennifer Milner: Thank you both.

[41:53] Moira McCormack: Thank you very much indeed. It was lovely to meet you, Jennifer, which we haven't actually met before. And Linda and I will be meeting in New Orleans, won't we?

[42:06] Dr. Linda Bluestein: Yes, absolutely, yes.

Moira McCormack: And at the PAMA conference.

[42:06] Dr. Linda Bluestein: Yes, right, most definitely. And it's been great having everybody here today for Bendy Bodies with the Hypermobility MD. Today our guest has been Moira McCormack, physiotherapist for the Royal Ballet Company in London. Please go to bendybodies.org for links to more information. We will have links there to Moira's research projects and resources for dance teachers, for parents, and for dancers themselves. Please go to bendybodies.org for links to all the episodes and to access the show notes. If you enjoyed this podcast, please share, leave a review, and consider rating us 5 stars. Don't forget to subscribe so you will be notified of all new episodes. Feedback is greatly appreciated and can be emailed to [email protected]. Go to hypermobilitymd.com to sign up for my newsletter. My guest co-host Jennifer Milner can be reached at [email protected] — that's M-I-L-N-E-R.
[43:14] Thank you to Rhett Gill for production and sound editing, to Andrew Savino for composing our original music, and to Jennifer Arsenault for designing the Bendy Bodies website and cover artwork. This podcast is for informational purposes only and is not a substitute for medical advice. Please see your own medical team prior to making any changes to your healthcare. Thanks for tuning in, and we'll see you next time on Bendy Bodies with the Hypermobility MD.