The Truth About Ballet Bodies with ABTs Skylar Brandt

[00:49] Dr. Linda Bluestein: Welcome back, everyone.

[00:49] Jennifer Milner: Welcome to the Bendy Bodies Podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Linda Bluestein, the Hypermobility MD, a Mayo Clinic-trained physician here to help you understand connective tissue disorders and live your best bendy life. I'm thrilled to be joined today by my friend and Bendy Bodies OG co-host Jennifer Milner, former professional ballet dancer and expert in training hypermobile movers. If you haven't yet, be sure to check out our recent conversation, Dancing Stronger: Smarter Training for Bendy Bodies with Jennifer Milner, episode 165. It's packed with practical, dancer-tested wisdom.
[01:33] And today we have a truly special guest, Skylar Brandt, principal dancer with American Ballet Theatre. She began ballet at age 6 at Scarsdale Ballet School and later trained at the Jacqueline Kennedy Onassis School of American Ballet Theatre. A two-time silver medalist at YAGP, she joined ABT2 in 2009, became an apprentice in 2010, entered the corps de ballet in 2011, rose to soloist in 2015, and then was promoted to principal in 2020. Her accolades include a 2013 Princess Grace Foundation USA Dance Fellowship, a feature in Ballet's Greatest Hits, a special jury award on Russia's Big Ballet, and recognition on the Forbes 30 Under 30 list in 2022.
[02:16] We are excited about this conversation because on Bendy Bodies, we love talking with dancers. They embody the relationship between movement, resilience, and body awareness that so many people with connective tissue disorders can relate to. Dancers live in bodies that push the limits of human movement, bending, stretching, and sustaining extraordinary precision under pressure. Research shows that up to 90% of professional dancers meet criteria for generalized joint hypermobility compared to about 20% of the general population. But not every dancer is hypermobile, and even those who aren't face the constant task of mastering control, alignment, and recovery in an art form that demands perfection from head to toe.
Today's guest, Skylar Brandt, exemplifies that balance, combining discipline, artistry, and intelligent training to sustain a long, healthy career. We'll explore her work ethic, recovery mindset, and what the dance world can teach all of us, hypermobile or not, about strength, adaptability, and longevity. As always, this information is for educational purposes only and is not a substitute for personalized medical advice. Stick around until the very end so you don't miss any of our special hypermobility hacks. Here we go.
[03:26] Okay. We are here with Skylar Brandt, and I can't tell you, Skylar, how excited I am to chat with you.

[03:31] Skylar Brandt: Thank you. Likewise. I'm so happy that you're having me on.

[03:35] Jennifer Milner: Oh, wonderful. And I'm so happy that Jenn Milner is here, OG co-host for Bendy Bodies. And Jenn, you're going to start with the questions, right?

[03:41] Jennifer Milner: I am. We have a lot we want to ask you about today, so let's just go ahead and dig in. So you are part of the first generation of ballet stars to grow up with the international youth competitions and the sort of ever-present social media. We would love to hear how this has shaped you as a young dancer and how you use it now to both mentor the next generation and also to inform your own career.

[04:15] Skylar Brandt: Social media is such a tricky thing because we can use it as a great tool from which to learn. Back when YouTube was the thing, I was constantly watching videos of Adeline Pastor and various stars that I wouldn't have otherwise had the opportunity to see if it were not for the internet. Daniel Simkin got his start on the internet. It really opened my whole world to the possibilities of what you could do in classical ballet. And so I was really grateful for that.
[04:53] But I think social media has that tendency to shift to the less-than-ideal side, which could include people portraying parts of their lives that are not totally truthful. The internet is kind of like the Wild West — you can find all kinds of things whether you're looking for them or not, everything's driven by an algorithm. It's like I can see how social media is so necessary to have, especially as an artist, a performer. It's one of the only ways that I can communicate to people when I'm going to be on stage. Also, it's a way that I can share with the world my own process, which I think can be really helpful, especially for young people.
[05:48] But it's also really easy to see those dancers online who might film something over and over again just to get the perfect shot of their 10 pirouettes, or their perfect balance. It's not like there's anything wrong with that — it's probably kind of assumed that that's what's going on anyway. But I think it could put emphasis sometimes on the wrong things for young dancers, and it can start to take away from artistry and focus on technical capabilities. I think it's all important. We just need to be really mindful of what we're seeing and what we're watching. That's why personally I like to share my process. Even though it's still curated — I'm not always posting my worst take — I'm also showing my journey through preparing a role by showing several different takes over maybe the course of a couple of months. So that's kind of how I like to share on social media.

[06:53] Jennifer Milner: Well, and I think that you are very inspiring on social media. I still remember, and I'm sure everybody remembers, your Sleeping Beauty promenade and your attitude.

[07:05] Skylar Brandt: That, I can say, took me like three weeks to do. I was practicing that every day. And also, we have to remember it was the pandemic, so nothing else was going on. It was all I had to do in my day was learn how to promenade en pointe. So again, everything with a grain of salt. It's not like I'd ever want to try to do that in an actual performance. I couldn't. But I was working really hard. That was a lot of trial and error and a lot of different takes over and over again on the floor.

[07:36] Jennifer Milner: Which you were also very honest about, right? You weren't like, "Oh, look what I just happened to do one day while I was warming up."

[07:42] Skylar Brandt: It was so easy. Yeah.

[07:47] Jennifer Milner: Something else that you have been really honest about is your — you said you consider yourself to have a lack of hypermobility, which, we have seen a growth of on social media, sort of encouraging hypermobility in those looks. So as a young and aspiring dancer, did you wish that you were more flexible? And what was it like growing up in this culture as someone who isn't as bendy? Have you felt that pressure to push your body beyond what's healthy for the sake of aesthetics?

[08:17] Skylar Brandt: Yeah, absolutely. It's funny because sometimes I'll be having a conversation with someone who's not a dancer and I'll say, "Yeah, I'm actually not that flexible." And they all laugh at me like, what are you, crazy? Like, that's the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. And I'm like, no, I understand I'm flexible, but I'm not as flexible as many people are in the ballet world. For example, if someone's leg goes behind their ear, mine goes to my shoulder. That's the difference I'm talking about. I have a lack of flexibility in many parts of my body. My legs don't go as high, my feet are not as bendy — just certain things structurally that I just don't have and maybe other people are blessed with.
[09:04] And as a kid, it was so difficult to contend with because you're looking around at your peers, at your classmates, and you're like, "I'm doing all this stuff at home, I'm trying to stretch, but I just don't have that space. My hips just don't open up that way. My feet are just — the bones are the way that they are, and no matter how much I'm jamming them under the piano or the couch" — which, also, ow, that can create a whole other slew of issues — "my feet are not necessarily going to be as banana-y as someone else's." So it was something I think I was frustrated about because I knew there was a limitation as to how much I could change. The way my body was, was the way I was born.
[09:54] But then as I got older, I actually realized that my lack of hypermobility also protected my body in ways. I was less prone to injuries, and perhaps I could move faster than some people because I had tighter muscles, more of that fast-twitch reaction. But I could also see that whether somebody's leg is here or here, of course there's a difference in the beauty and the aesthetic, but it's also not what's most important. And so I think that falls into line with the things we see on social media — somebody doing 20 pirouettes, which is a stunt. Astounding, but maybe the next person is doing 25 pirouettes, and it's like, okay, that's the difference of 5 pirouettes. Same way, it might be a difference of 5 degrees in the height of the leg. But what's important is what moves you emotionally, not necessarily that kind of technical stuff. So I feel like I grew to appreciate my body and my body's limitations more when I got older and could see the benefits that it actually provided me later on.

[11:02] Jennifer Milner: I love that. And that you could see that hopefully at an earlier age too. I think a lot of young dancers struggle with that — with what's the assumption. In my work with pre-professional dancers, I always say, your job is not to be the next Skylar Brandt. Your job is to be you and show the world what you have to offer.
[11:28] Speaking of that, you've been pretty honest about your feet and the work that you've had to do with your feet. You've talked about wearing farches and saying your feet aren't quite as fancy. So tell us a little bit more about your feet and ankles. And by the way, I love that you talk honestly about it and also that you chose to wear farches — the fake arches — rather than, break your feet in half under the piano.

[11:54] Skylar Brandt: Yes, absolutely. Well, I appreciate that. I think, first of all, I feel open about talking about it because I don't think it's anything to be ashamed of, the fact that my feet are not as arched as the next person. I mean, sometimes I'll be at the beach and I'll see somebody with just the most gorgeous feet. And you're like, why were they never a dancer? So it just goes to show that you can be born with feet like that. And it's not that people who are born with those feet don't also work hard at their feet and strengthening them. Obviously that comes with its own set of issues.
[13:23] In the same way that my lack of hypermobility actually helps me to have strength when I'm performing certain things — hops on pointe are quite easy for me because my feet are naturally a little bit more compact than maybe the person who has uber-flexible feet, and there's less strength in the tendons, easier for them to maybe roll their ankles — it's a little more dangerous. But they may not have had to break their feet under the piano in order to accomplish a beautiful line. There's nothing wrong with either thing, and I think that's why I like to be open about it. Obviously, ballet is an aesthetic art form, so if it's more pleasing to see a more arched foot at the end of a line, then why not put some padding on my feet? Just the same way people put padding in other places of their bodies — it's an option, so why not?
[13:31] It's not that I don't work hard. I have a limitation as to how far my feet can go. And I did as a kid try to stretch my feet and it definitely put stress on my Achilles and on my ankles and made me feel jammed. I'll never forget joining ABT2 — the studio company. The first day, the director came up to me and said, "Have you ever tried arch enhancers?" And I was just like, "Okay, that's your way to say, hey, go out and buy a pair of arch enhancers." So I got a bunch of different kinds, I tried them, and they helped. They also helped with my confidence because I was no longer stressing as hard. To be fair, I was only wearing the fake arches for performances. So in class and in rehearsal, I was still working on my feet, not just trying to find the quick fix. I was still trying to make my line as best as I could in those moments, but I gave myself a little bit extra for the performances.
[14:58] What I will say — an interesting new discovery is that my one foot is better than the other. My left foot is not as flexible, and I also have more of a hyperextended knee on my left leg. So it's interesting because when I stretch my knee and point my foot really hard, it almost does this thing where it makes my foot look even more flexed. And to point so hard against how hard I'm stretching my knee may have caused me to have a buildup of fluid in my ankle, on the outside of my ankle. I was like, "Ow, this is really painful," and it was something I just couldn't get to the bottom of. It turned out it was an overuse kind of injury.
[15:47] I worked with a teacher actually, Isabelle Guérin, who's Paris Opera trained, and she said to me, don't stretch your knee that hard. When you overstretch your knee, it almost gives your foot at the end of the line a worse angle. She said, pull up your kneecap, but don't overstretch. And it was amazing because after a little while of doing this, I was no longer tensing my quads and making my leg line rigid, but it was also allowing my foot to point more easily without having to work against the strength of my calf being as fully engaged as it was. So it not only made my line look better to slightly ease off the knee — to me it feels like bent, but it's not really. It doesn't look bent. It's just not overly stretched where it's going in the opposite direction. And it also helped to alleviate pressure on my ankle and actually allow my foot to fold more over my Achilles, as opposed to having the Achilles engaged so much that my foot couldn't get past it.
[16:59] So I don't know if any of that makes sense, but it was this great new discovery of going from being a perfect student — stretching my knees, pointing my feet as hard as I can — to actually relaxing my body so that my bones could stack up, line up in a slightly different way, and look more beautiful, use less energy and tension.

[17:23] Jennifer Milner: Well, and I think it's also an excellent example of realizing you don't have to try to achieve a certain look. What we're doing is the process. And if you are dancing correctly, then you have this great line and this great look rather than asking what do I have to do to my body to get this look — which for you was artificial. You don't have super hyperextended knees, so why should you be pushing into it? Being able to relax into it is a great example. Thank you.

[17:48] Dr. Linda Bluestein: I love that. I don't know if you've heard of Bonnie Southgate Moore. Jennifer and I interviewed her for the podcast, and she is actually doing her PhD or master's literally in what you just said — the more you hyperextend your knee, the more you have to have ankle range of motion in order to get over your pointe shoe. So exactly what you just said. That's really fascinating.
[18:07] And you're right, there are actual medical conditions like metatarsus adductus, which we also talked about on this podcast with a podiatrist. I have a family member who has this, and they have gorgeous arches. Not a dancer, gorgeous arches. But it comes with all kinds of complications and other problems. So the ankle and the foot are of course both related when it comes to being en pointe. Dancing with the body that you have is such a great message that you're giving us here. I think that's so important for especially young dancers to hear. But working with the body that we have is important for everyone, whether they're a dancer or not.
[18:50] Let's shift gears a little bit and talk about injuries. Have you had to deal much with injuries? You've mentioned that briefly earlier, but how have you managed in that regard?

[19:03] Skylar Brandt: I love to tell this story because I think it's important to hear, especially for dancers that love to persevere and are so good at pushing through pain. We're so tough, so hardworking. It's hard to keep us out of the studios. We want to progress. We have this hunger for physical activity, but sometimes we need to listen to our bodies.
[19:29] My story is that after rehearsal one day, I felt like my back got sore — my lower back. So for a couple of weeks, I was just stretching it constantly, and it was a dull ache that just wasn't going away no matter what I was doing. Then one morning I woke up and I couldn't even lower my chin without feeling a zing from the base of my spine to the top of my head. And I'm a person who has not generally been injured in my whole time dancing, from student to professional — again, I think thanks to my slightly tighter body, everything is in good working order. But what did I do? I'm getting ready to go to work, completely ignoring the fact that my body is saying, hey, you're in pain. Maybe you should stop.

[20:21] Dr. Linda Bluestein: Don't go.

[20:21] Skylar Brandt: Maybe you should not go to work. And even just putting on my socks and shoes — to bend down, it was a sensation I'd never had before in my whole life. So I go to work. Now I'm in the dressing room and I'm putting on tight clothes, which when you are feeling this kind of pain is horrible. Trying to even pull tights up was so excruciating. And now I'm going to class and I'm stretching before class as best as I can. I start doing pliés and tendus, and then I realize, nope, this isn't happening. There's no way.
[21:03] So I go to PT, and everybody looks at me like this when I walk into the PT room because I'm never in PT. I never even have normal aches and pains, which I feel so lucky about. So everybody's like, "Oh my God, what are you doing in here?" And I was like, "Well, I can't even lower my head without feeling an enormous amount of pain." The physical therapist who has known me for years, even though I'm not in there — she was like, oh, this must be serious. So she tested me and then she was like, "I think you need to see the doctor today and get an MRI."
So I say great. I go to get up off the table — I think I had been lying down and engaging my muscles to stand back up — and my whole back seized to the point where it made me lightheaded. I almost felt like I was going to fall down. I remember calling my mom and saying, "Mom, you have to come pick me up in a cab. I have to go to the doctor. Something's wrong."
[22:04] Turns out I had a herniated disc in my lumbar spine, which is actually not uncommon even for non-dancers. People live with herniations and don't even know they have them. But it put me out actually not for very long. And I learned the hard way not to ignore a signal from my body. If I'm in pain, I should have stopped and not pushed through. Because it's so short-sighted when we as dancers decide we're just going to push through something, and then it becomes a worse, more chronic injury.
[22:45] This is something that, still every week to this day, I'm going to Pilates. The same teacher who helped me rehab my back — I've continued with her even though it's been years and years and years since I've felt any back pain at all. I forget I even ever had this injury. But now I'm like, okay, the importance of cross-training, the importance of having consistency for my body. I also am a firm believer in getting bodywork done — be that massage or acupuncture or chiropractic or whatever it is that works for any given person. It's so tough because as ballet dancers, we are already not making the same amount of money as, let's say, your basketball player who has a whole team to support him. But the investment in ourselves is so important. I'm spending money — which fortunately I have money to spend as a principal dancer, I'm making a salary that allows me to invest in myself and in my health to keep me on stage.
[23:54] But it was such a great lesson. It's that thing of saying, you come out of an injury stronger. That was true both physically, but also in intelligence about my body, awareness about my body. And now I'll never ignore a warning sign from my body again.

[24:15] Dr. Linda Bluestein: That's such a great lesson. Because I think, especially in ballet, there's so much pain — there's pain with pointe shoes, obviously sore muscles, so many things that we do that are painful. So distinguishing —

[24:27] Skylar Brandt: It's normal.

[24:28] Dr. Linda Bluestein: Yeah, it's normal. So you're trying to sort out, is this a good pain or a bad pain? Is this a pain associated with something getting stronger or making some kind of progress, or is this something that I really need to do something about? And in dance too, most injuries are overuse injuries. They're not sudden acute. I mean, if you do a grand jeté and you land and you immediately twist your ankle, okay, you just had a big injury. But otherwise, the statistics bear this out — injuries just kind of creep up. So it makes it harder to know, when do I change something about this?

[25:04] Skylar Brandt: Yeah. And I will say, I remember as a teenager, a young teenager, I was also experiencing some kinds of back soreness. And I went to Dr. Hamilton, who was a big dance doctor at the time. I said, this is what's going on. And he said, I think it's your growth plates — I was growing and it was putting stress on my body. And I said, okay, how do I proceed from here? Do I need to stop dancing? And he gave me one of the best pieces of information that I've remembered since that day. He said to me, just don't do anything that hurts it. And it was so obvious. But it wasn't like, oh my God, you have to stop dancing entirely. It was, no — if you're having pain, but it just hurts to do a bend forward or a jump, landing from a jump, just don't do those things. So it was liberating, because I thought, okay, great, I can continue and not feel like I'm losing out on time. As long as I'm just not doing the things that continue to aggravate it, it can heal while I get other stuff accomplished.

[26:24] Dr. Linda Bluestein: It's so interesting that you said that because I hurt my knee a number of years ago. I tore a bunch of things in my knee mountain biking, which was a very bad choice to try to do. And one of my orthopedic colleagues who had looked at my MRI was kind of helping me on the side — which was a big mistake, I should have gone in for a formal appointment. But instead he calls me and says, kind of jokingly, "No surgery for you." And then I said, "Well, what do I do then?" And he said, "Just don't do anything that hurts." And he didn't really emphasize that I had a bone bruise and all these other torn things — but I didn't have a torn ACL, so it was not surgical. And when he said, "Don't do anything that hurts," it was like, but everything hurts. So it's great that you're sharing that, because in some cases there will be certain things that you can do. It's like relative rest, right? I'm sure, Jen, you've talked to people about this all the time.

[27:14] Jennifer Milner: Yep. Relative rest versus another type of injury where maybe this was an acute injury where everything hurt, and you didn't listen to your body. As we often do. So in terms of long dance careers, what do you think are the most crucial ingredients for that?

[27:32] Skylar Brandt: Do you mean physically, being able to sustain physically, or mentally as well?

[27:35] Jennifer Milner: Both.

[27:45] Skylar Brandt: Of course, having any kind of strong support system is important. But physically, I think again, it's that thing of listening to your body, investing in your body, but also being open and very observant. It's funny — when I was in my 20s, my colleagues would say to me, "Oh my God, just wait till you're in your 30s. Everything starts to hurt, you feel so stiff." And I'm like, but you're 30 — that's still so young. But now that I'm into my thirties, I'm like, oh yeah, it does take a little longer for my body to wake up in the morning.
[28:36] And I think I have continued to feel good because even though I'm older and might have more of my own limitations, what I also have is more knowledge of my craft. My technique has gotten better over time because I've spent longer doing what I'm doing professionally. So even though your body is aging, I'm also a lot smarter about how I'm working, and making these small discoveries that make such a huge difference — like not hyperextending my knee, which of course in school your teacher is going to say, stretch your knees. And as a student, you stretch your knees because it's academic. But then as a professional, you say, wait a second, I don't need my knee to go backwards. It can still be stretched and look just as well, if not better.
[33:45] So it's interesting because in a way you can have a long career the longer you spend in the career, because you just get smarter and wiser and more attuned to what you need to do. Also, when you're younger, you still have this approach of needing to prove yourself, which is the unfortunate truth that comes along with probably any industry. When you're young and new, you need to make a statement, you need to make an impact, you need to prove to whoever's making choices about your career why you deserve to be where you want to go. And so you push yourself harder. But the older you get and the more trust there is and the more people know who you are, you earn the ability to take things more easily when you really need to. It's kind of that trickle-down effect. So in a way, I think age can help with the longevity of your career.

Jennifer Milner: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Linda Bluestein: Mm-hmm.

[33:45] Jennifer Milner: Well, and I think you get there by understanding who you are and having that authenticity from as early an age as possible. When you look at the people who have had longer careers like Wendy Whelan and Sylvie Guillem, they both have very authentic personalities on stage — trying to think of a way to put it that non-dancers would understand as well. You get a sense of who they are as a person from watching them dance. They're not trying to fit into a specific type. They understand what they do well, and they are very strong in that.
[33:45] I think that you're another person like that. We definitely know who you are when we watch you dance, and I think that shows the maturity of being in it for a while, but also the understanding of who you are as a human and what you have to bring to it. I know Sylvie was kind of the OG bendy body. She lasted until her mid-50s performing, and people were like, there was no one bendy before her. And I'm like, well, there was, but they didn't know how to take care of their body. So they didn't make it to 54. She knew how to take care of herself and she knew what to do every day. And you're the same way. You post a lot of videos of yourself busting your butt to get ready for Giselle, and it's not just in the dance studio — it's the box jumps and all the crazy stuff on the trampoline and everything. I love that you show that so people understand there's more to doing the entrechats in Giselle than just practicing the entrechats over and over again.

[33:45] Skylar Brandt: Yeah. And I think it's so true what you're saying about each person being an individual. Maybe box jumps work for me, but not for somebody else. And I think again, when you're young, you're like, oh well, if she's doing it, then that's probably the thing to do. But it's not necessarily true. There are so many different ways to get to the same goals. People need to have enough faith in themselves and trust in themselves and confidence to make their own decisions and not just follow the crowd — which is easy to do when you're young and you have less confidence.

[33:45] Dr. Linda Bluestein: And you alluded to this earlier about the range of joint hypermobility amongst dancers, even amongst the same rank within the same company — some dancers are going to be much more hypermobile than others. Have you noticed anything along the lines of strengths, vulnerabilities, injury patterns, anything like that, as it might pertain to hypermobility?

[33:45] Skylar Brandt: Yes, I think so. The people who seem to maybe get more injured have bodies that don't stop at a certain point, so they could just either go over their ankle, or — it's actually interesting because there was a dancer who injured her foot because, on some sort of partnered move, her foot just kind of continued to bend and then it strained ligaments and stuff. And then I had, during the same season, a move where I was sliding my feet and then had to go up and over. And it went a little too far, but instead of my foot going with the shoe, my foot just came out of my pointe shoe. I was like, "Oh my God, thank God." Again, thank God my feet are not so bendy — they stopped somewhere. So the pointe shoe kept going, but my foot just came out of the shoe. Maybe if I had had that other person's feet, my foot would have gone with the action that ended up causing an injury. So I do see it.

[35:04] Dr. Linda Bluestein: Yeah. And as we have talked about so frequently — I love, Jen, you're pointing out Sylvie Guillem, because why you're hypermobile in the first place makes all the difference in the world. I know some people have said, "Oh, well, professional dancers couldn't possibly have a connective tissue disorder like Ehlers-Danlos." I have worked with quite a few former professional ballet dancers that have been diagnosed with Ehlers-Danlos syndrome, which is a form of connective tissue disorder. So sometimes that same thing that is such an incredible blessing and allows you to do such incredible things can also predispose you to injury. But you can't tell by looking at somebody. I've seen people say, watching the Olympics for example, "Oh, that person clearly has EDS." It's like, you can't tell by looking at somebody what they have.
[35:55] So we are going to take a quick break. And when we come back, we are going to talk about what advice you would like to give to younger dancers and what we want dancers to know about using social media and keeping their bodies safe and healthy. We'll be right back.

[38:09] Jennifer Milner: All right, and we are back having a conversation with Skylar Brandt. Skylar, we have talked a bit earlier about social media and about you growing up in the age of social media and how it affected you. We've covered a fair amount of that, but I would love to know: do you think that there are any trends — like the hyperextension, the extreme flexibility, the social media aesthetics or the social media perfection — that concern you as a professional? And how would you speak about that to younger dancers?

[38:45] Skylar Brandt: I think every dancer, especially once they go from student to professional, ends up finding themselves more as an artist. Because even in school, we take class every day and we practice different styles and techniques — maybe character class, jazz class, what have you — but as students, we're not on stage as much as a professional dancer. And when we are on stage or doing a competition, you're not doing a full-length ballet yet, you're executing a variation. I think probably the most artistic someone might feel as a young person is in The Nutcracker, when you're playing a party kid or the Rat King or the Sugar Plum Fairy — all of a sudden you're immersed in a world that allows you to find your voice, your individuality, and your expression.
[39:42] So I'm not necessarily worried about young people eventually finding themselves. What I will say is, from social media — and I'm also learning from it — there was something actually kind of liberating about seeing people's abilities, even if again, they were students. Most of these people I see who are doing crazy things are students. It could be the girl doing 20 pirouettes, the girl who is lifting her legs around her head. And what it did for me was weirdly take a weight off of my shoulders. I said to myself, "I'm never going to be able to do that." I thought I was doing well when I did 6 pirouettes in my living room, but this person's doing twice as many or three times as many. And it's not going to be possible for me, or at least I'm not going to spend my time in the studio figuring out how to do that. So I should really just focus on what makes this an art form.
[41:01] I don't want to discount how spectacular it is to go to the theater and watch someone pull into 6 or 7 or 8 pirouettes in a live show. It is amazing, but it's fleeting. And what I feel is so important to focus on is the part of the art form and the craft that stays with you for days. And I don't think that's going to be the height of the leg or the height of the jump, as spectacular as it is. I think at the end of the day, it's how you make people feel emotionally.

[41:39] Jennifer Milner: Yeah, I 100% agree with that. And I see so much on Instagram of those spectacular, pyrotechnic instances, which are breathtaking. I'll have my dancers come in with their Instagram and be like, "Look what Marianella posted. Look at this amazing pirouette she did." And I'm like, "But look at how she got out of the pirouette." That's so much harder. And I tell my dancers all the time, the difference for me between a pre-professional and a professional dancer is the transitions. That's what really speaks to you being able to be in a company and start figuring out your artistry.
[42:17] So I love that you saw that at an early age and said, okay, that's not going to be me — rather than going, well, I'm never going to be a dancer then, and giving up. You said, okay, this frees me up to pursue the other stuff, which I can be really good at, and I can find that artistry and figure out who I am. I love that.
[42:30] And you also continue coaching. You've posted some videos of yourself coaching and, as you said, getting privates with some pretty famous coaches. I think that's really important for people to see — that just because you make it into ABT Studio Company, or ABT, or make it as a soloist, or make it as a principal, doesn't mean you're done. As you said, you continue coaching. And I don't think Like Water for Chocolate could have been done by you as a 20-year-old the same way that it's being done now. There's so much that you bring to the table because you continue to learn and grow. So I appreciate you sharing that with our audience.

[43:26] Skylar Brandt: Thank you. Yeah, I think we're forever students. And I'm so grateful for my coaches, Irina Dvorovenko and Maxim Belotserkovsky, who were both principals at ABT. They did the same rep that I'm doing now, which is just amazing — to be able to pull from their experiences and their wisdom, their knowledge. They are so intuitive and so helpful. And honestly, I think because I started with them, all of a sudden there are so many dancers at ABT who are now working with them. So it makes me happy because they deserve the recognition that they have. And they're working with so many different people, yet they're not trying to make us all the same, which I think is also a really beautiful quality about them as teachers. It's the most important one, I think — to find what works for every person, knowing that we're all different. If we were all told to do the same thing, there would be no reason to come back and see Swan Lake eight different times in one week.
[44:42] Even as a principal, I remember speaking to Susan Jaffe, who's the director of American Ballet Theatre. I asked her — I think I was taking a private lesson with her when I was like 15 or 16 years old — and I said, "Oh my gosh, you must have been so nervous when you got your first soloist or principal roles." Because of course I was dreaming, I really want to do those things, but it's so scary to even think about getting your first opportunities. And she said, actually it was the opposite. She said, "When I got my first opportunities, there were no expectations. No one knew who I was." But then as she built her career and became a principal dancer, there was a certain level of expectation that people had every time they came to the theater to see her. So the pressure actually grew the more famous she became and the more experience she had on stage.
[45:40] And I think that's true. There's a lot of pressure that comes with being a principal dancer. You have a huge responsibility to carry the performance. And so you have to keep working at it to maintain your own level, and surpass it if you can.

[46:07] Jennifer Milner: Absolutely. And you've spoken a lot about this non-cookie-cutter approach to ballet and that it can't be one-size-fits-all. So sort of summarizing that a little bit — what do you think the dance world gets right and wrong about the beautiful lines, and how can we take what we've been talking about and use it to pass it down to the next generation? What can the ballet world in general do?

[46:37] Skylar Brandt: I think it's actually very necessary to, in school especially during those formative years, build that super strong base — the technique. Okay, this is what the textbook says: stretch your knees, point your feet, get your leg as high as possible. I think that's all really important because it's the foundation for what comes after. But what I wish I had known as a kid is that you don't have to stress about it that much. You need to know it, you need to learn it, but later you will break it. You will literally tear it all down. And that's not something I knew as a kid. I mean, what teacher is going to say, do all the things I'm telling you, but just know that in 20 years you're probably going to remove half of it from your brain? But I think I would have had an even more enjoyable journey to becoming a professional dancer had I known that it's not as black and white as it's sometimes presented to us.

[47:45] Jennifer Milner: Excellent. Thank you so much on that.

[47:47] Dr. Linda Bluestein: Yeah, and we had a couple of follower questions as well. One follower wanted to know how you take care of your body and mind after performing — what your recovery process looks like.

[47:58] Skylar Brandt: It depends on how the performance goes, to be really honest. On the occasions where I don't feel good about my performance — it was worse when I was younger — I would feel like I wanted to crawl into a hole and never come out. It would even be hard for me to go to work the next day because I was so embarrassed and ashamed, even though I was probably the only one who remembered what had happened the night before. But that's how important my job is to me — I have so much pride in what I do, and I respect the art form so much that if it's not what I want it to be, it's really difficult for me.
[48:39] Now I have a more mature perspective on it. Actually, recently I had a performance — one performance of "Theme and Variations" at ABT's fall season. It's a very difficult ballet, one of the hardest ones. Extremely technical, but beautiful. I've done a lot of work over time on my headspace and my mentality, and I'm really good at not getting nervous anymore for anything. I find that while nerves are great and important and super helpful — there's a reason why we get nervous and have adrenaline rushes before we do something big — for me, I'm more uncomfortable when I feel that way, so I learned how to just not feel that way before a show.
Same thing with "Theme and Variations." I wasn't feeling particularly nervous, but I had just done a run-through of it literally four hours prior in a tech rehearsal, which was not ideal, but I was still grateful to have the time on stage before. I made sure to be mindful not to overdo my rehearsal and make me too tired for the show, because it's one of those stamina-wise — I mean, vomit-worthy, it's exhausting. And I remember arriving on the stage feeling not fully invested in what I was doing, not fresh. It was also 9:30 at night. It was the last thing on the program.
[50:11] I said to myself, I've been here already today. I already went through these steps, maybe not 100% physically, but emotionally and mentally, because of the rehearsal. And then on top of that, it was coupled with how physically challenging the ballet is, and it just takes from you. So the fact that I mentally wasn't 100% there and also was so drained physically — the curtain came down, and I could not make eye contact with any of the staff members who had come on stage to congratulate us on the job we had done. I said to my partner, do you want to take a quick picture just to obviously remember the performance? We took two pictures, he left the dressing room, and I cried for like 30 minutes right after the curtain. I literally — the whole experience just was like shot. I was hysterically crying, taking my hair out, taking my makeup off — full distraught.
[51:19] That stuck with me for some time. And then later on in the evening, I got over it, but I was mentally going through the things that didn't go well. That's an instance of the way I come off a performance when it doesn't go great. I don't usually cry — I might feel extreme mortification — but in this case I think the physicality of it made me cry. It just took a lot out of me.
[51:46] Otherwise, after a performance, I usually spend a lot of time with people afterward — anyone who comes to say hi, and also friends and family who come to the show — and I like to talk about it. My coaches, who are at almost every performance of mine, will leave me a long voice note about what they liked, what they didn't like. I'm very big on feedback. It doesn't matter to me if it's the next day or the next week — I'm like, I want the feedback right away, I want to know. So I rely on those people to share with me while it's still fresh in my head. And then it's really hard for me to fall asleep. I usually, after a Swan Lake or something, I'm going to bed at 1 or 2 in the morning, even though I'm really tired. I can't shut my brain off. So that's sort of my post-performance routine — both analyzing what just happened and also trying to relax and fall asleep, which is hard to do.

[52:47] Dr. Linda Bluestein: I can't even imagine. I've been to performances where I'm not performing, I'm watching. And the performance was so moving that I went home and could not fall asleep, just thinking, oh, this is so exciting, what a great performance. I'm curious — I think what you just shared is fascinating — the feedback from your coaches, does that usually line up with what you felt in your body? For example, this time you're talking about with "Theme and Variations" — did the feedback from your coaches fit with how you thought you did?

[53:19] Skylar Brandt: Absolutely. I always pretty much agree 100% with them. Everything, all the feedback that they have, I totally feel it and respect it and agree with them. Sometimes it's hard for me to put my finger on what I didn't like or what I did like, and they — because I can't watch myself — can sometimes lead me in the direction of what needs to be fixed. That said, they also point out things that they like. A lot of times it's even your costume, it's your hair, it's your makeup, the way your hairline — literally, it's to that degree. But it makes sense. Again, ballet is aesthetic, so everything matters. It's not just the way you dance on stage — it's how your costume fits you, or the shape of your bun, how it complements or detracts from your own proportions. That's like 60 or 70% of it, and then the dancing kind of follows after. So it's so important to have those people in your life, because it's easy for people who are kind and supportive to be like, "Oh, that was amazing."

[54:40] Jennifer Milner: You're so pretty. Yeah.

[54:42] Skylar Brandt: I'm like, thank you, next — moving on. Who's going to tell me, despite all that, what I need to know for the next one? And then I write it down as well. Making notes.

[54:52] Jennifer Milner: I think that's so interesting to hear how much thought goes into where your bun is placed. I know so many conversations go into where exactly the tiara goes on your head and how much it changes the way you look. And audiences may think, well, that's stupid, but then they may see the dancer on stage and go, "Oh, there was something. I don't know. I just didn't like it." So audiences really don't understand how much thought and planning goes into where's the bun going, what kind of part, what kind of hair — just for a bun. So what do you hope that audiences can understand about the strength and the sacrifice and all that goes into the beauty that they see on stage?

[55:39] Skylar Brandt: I think it's our job to make it look easy and beautiful. And that's why I love ballet. Ballet is just as athletic as any sport, but it also has that element of being an art. So while I wish audiences had more appreciation for just how difficult it is, I also feel okay about the fact that they are going to see something beautiful and they might not know exactly what went into it. That's kind of the sacrifice I think we make as artists in getting to perform for people, do what we love to do. I don't feel pity for us — "Oh, people don't know how hard it is." Yeah, that is true, they don't. But also, we're there to look a certain way, to be beautiful, to be artistic, to transcend people. And part of that sometimes is not knowing what they're looking at. There's a mystery in the ballet, a mysticism about it, that I think actually adds to the experience.

[56:57] Jennifer Milner: Mm-hmm. I agree. I love to read, and reading good writers really moves me. I don't want to know if they struggle every day to write or if the words just pour out. I don't want to see the crumpled balls of paper. The end product is so magical and transportive for me that that's all I need. And I agree that there should be that mystery because we are trying to create — the lights, the staging, the music, the costumes, the whole thing. And at the same time, we want to make sure people understand how hard dancers work and how they deserve to get paid as athletes — not just because they look cute in a tutu, but because they deserve to get paid as professionals and working athletes.
[57:42] So I appreciate your comments on that. If you could change one thing about how dancers are educated about anatomy, injury, and self-care, what would it be? And I'm really interested to hear from the point of view of dancers who peak too soon, and what you mentioned earlier about the longevity of a career and how those two might intersect.

[58:09] Skylar Brandt: I feel like another great example of me learning something the hard way. When I had my back injury, I ended up going to see Clarice Marshall, who's a Pilates teacher. She used to be a dancer for Mark Morris, and she helped to rehab me. Now I see her every week for Pilates.
[58:31] When I was 12, 13, 14, 15, and I was going to ABT's summer programs or the ABT school, she would also give us Pilates classes — that's how we'd start the day. And I could not for the life of me understand what was so beneficial about doing a heel slide, laying on my back, lifting one knee and putting it down, lifting the other knee and putting it down. If it wasn't physically hard, how is it benefiting me? I remember I would sometimes — because I was tired anyway from going to school and then going to dance, I had five hours a day at ballet school — I would take those opportunities lying on my back to actually take a little nap if I could, close my eyes. And Clarice, who is the sweetest, would walk by and say, "Oh, Skylar, this exercise is with your eyes open."
[59:30] I just could not appreciate what that was doing for me until I got injured. And then all of a sudden, however many years later — 20 years later — I was like, "Clarice, do you remember when I used to take a nap in your class? And now here you are saving me coming back from an injury, and now I don't know what I would do without you."
[59:50] It's hard for young dancers to see the benefits of cross-training, just as it was difficult for me. Young dancers are also pushed very hard. If you see a talented kid, all the people around them want to just push them forward. It's that thing of a teacher building their own name and reputation off of the raw talent of a student. So I think for parents, it's also really important to check in with their children — how are you doing, take a pulse, make sure that they're happy, make sure that they're not burnt out. That really comes down to that support system that we briefly touched on. It's kind of easy to tell someone to do something, but when you're actually the person doing it, and you're young and you haven't found your voice, and we're in a silent art form — it's scary. A lot of people end up finishing before they've even started. You see it so often.

[1:01:03] Jennifer Milner: Yeah, I see that a lot. And I do mostly privates. When I'm working with a younger dancer and the parents are worried because she's missing this competition or may not make it back for Nutcracker, I have to say, I don't want your daughter to peak when she's 14. I want her to peak when she's 45 or 50. The ones who burn super brightly when they're really young are the ones who often burn out too soon, because they're so amazing to look at that people aren't going, "Let's slow down and just go slow and easy with it." And you were one of those people who was on the stage at a pretty early age. So I think you're a great example of how it can still be done and still be done well.

Skylar Brandt: Yeah.

[1:01:53] Dr. Linda Bluestein: Yeah. And I'm so glad you used the word talent, Skylar, because I have seen so many people talk about talent when they're looking at a dancer who's really, really hypermobile — maybe equating the two. We know that the artistry and all these other things are so important, and dance is about movement. I love what Jenn said about the transitions — things happen in the transitions. And Jenn and I have quite a few clients in common. They might look a certain way in Instagram photos and Instagram Reels, they can do certain things, but then when it comes to day-to-day, they're either in pain or they're having various different problems. I've worked with a dancer who was always in the front and center doing the Needle and the Scorpion, she had all these flexibility awards, and she was retired at age 14 or something like that.
[1:02:44] It is so challenging, because dancers now are seeing all this on social media and they need to hear from people like you more and more that it's not about pushing into your hypermobility. If you have a more hypermobile body, you need to protect it even more. But if you were to synthesize it into a handful of sentences — what do you really think young dancers need to know about the social media aspects and the hypermobility? Because they're getting so many of these messages, there are so many places where they just keep showing more and more of these images, and it's really difficult for them.

[1:03:22] Skylar Brandt: I think my message would be: keep working on it in a safe way. If you're not the most flexible person, just as I wasn't, keep working on your weaknesses as we all do, but also continue to strengthen your strengths. Don't take them for granted. Don't ignore them. Discover what's going to make you different from the next person and what is going to make you interesting. There's a reason why there are multiple principal dancers at any given ballet company — it's because people want to see multiple different interpretations of the same ballet. There's a reason somebody would come back eight different nights to see eight different people portray Odette/Odile in Swan Lake. Those differences in each other — while it's good to take from your classmate and observe and learn from them — also go inward and see what makes you, you.

[1:04:30] Dr. Linda Bluestein: That's beautiful. And if you could tell your younger self something, what would you say?

[1:04:38] Skylar Brandt: I think I would tell myself that it's not always going to be fair. Things are not always going to be fair. As a student, I very much felt like if I work hard and perform consistently, then I'll be rewarded for it. And that is largely how it works in ballet school. I was lucky — I was always more or less at the top of my class, so I wasn't experiencing a lot of difficulty. I wasn't having to overcome a lot as a child, because my teachers appreciated me and gave me chances, nurtured me, and fostered what I had to give. But then when you get into a company, all of a sudden you're one of 90. And even if you feel like you're deserving of something, there might be somebody in the director's office making a case for themselves as to why they should do something — not necessarily to your exclusion, but it ends up perhaps being to your exclusion.
[1:05:46] So I think for me, it was coming to terms with the fact that I might actually have to speak up for myself and push and ask for things and do the uncomfortable thing, which is to use our voice to advocate for ourselves. That's something I kind of wish I wasn't so naive about when I was younger, because it took me probably 10 years in ABT to actually find the courage to assert myself. And it wasn't until I discovered my own bottom line — okay, what this information is telling me is maybe you're not going to be a principal dancer here, or maybe not as soon as you want. So what are you going to do with that?
[1:06:39] It's my responsibility to take that information and do something with it. I can't just complain, "Oh, I'm not getting cast," or, "I'm only doing things because someone gets injured." At a certain point, it was up to me to make a decision based on what my circumstances were and to actually take responsibility for myself. And it was in that moment that I said, "Okay, I don't think I'm happy here. I want to go somewhere else. I want to be a principal dancer. So if it's not here, I'll do it somewhere else." And that was the moment I was promoted. I'm sure that's something my director could sense at the time.

[1:07:18] Jennifer Milner: Yeah. That's a great story.

[1:07:21] Dr. Linda Bluestein: Love that.

[1:07:22] Jennifer Milner: So, we've talked at length about the fact that you are not hypermobile, but we would love to hear from you, having observed it from the outside — would you have any hypermobility hacks for dancers? And it doesn't even have to be a physical thing. It could be a mental thing as well.

[1:07:39] Skylar Brandt: I think the thing that's worked for me again is that thing of investing in my body, getting bodywork done, making the time for it, getting to class at a responsible time that allows me to stretch and prepare my body for what I have to do. Taking class — it's funny, I spoke to a friend the other day and I said, "Do you think you could go into a rehearsal day without taking class?" And he said, "Yeah, I could. Would I want to? No." I've never been a person who could just go into rehearsal without taking class. To me it just sounds crazy. But some people do it.
[1:08:14] I think being diligent about how you prepare yourself for your day is important. Finding the things on the outside that work for you. Listening to your body. Stopping when it seems like you should stop. Speaking up when something seems dangerous — like working with a new choreographer. A lot of people get their first opportunities working with a choreographer who sees something in them and says, "You're going to be the star of my new ballet." It would be very hard to then say, "Hey, this lift that you're inventing is really hard on my body." But imagine what would happen if you don't speak up — you might end up with a chronic, even career-ending injury.
[1:09:03] I always say to young people, I know it feels like the end of the world to miss a week or a month, or miss your Nutcracker run, or miss a year. But in the context of an entire career — which, God willing, could be 20 or 30 years long — a year is nothing.
[1:09:25] What I will say is I also learned something interesting recently from another bodyworker I just started seeing. He said to me, "When you go into a stretch, when you start to feel it, it's enough. You can sit in that place before you keep going." And I was like, oh, true. I guess I don't need to go into my widest split first thing in the morning and tear my inner thigh muscles. I could go to a certain degree, wait there for a minute, and when I feel like I'm ready, go into the next degree. But we're impatient, we're late for class, we have a whole number of reasons we think we should be able to get into a full split first thing — but it might not be true. So I think for me, that's been something I've learned more recently. As your career goes on, you just pick up more and more things. I can sit in a place in my stretch that is not so extreme, and then move, let it open, and then keep going. That's a hack I'm enjoying as of this moment.

[1:10:40] Jennifer Milner: Well, it's a great hack, and I love it. So thank you for that.

[1:10:43] Dr. Linda Bluestein: Yeah. And I love it because, although you've commented that you're not hypermobile, I'm sure there are some people who are going to say, wait a minute, I've seen her on stage, or I've seen her videos. Most professional dancers at your level, including you, have range of motion that is so much more than what the average person has. We often compare ourselves to other dancers. I remember I didn't really think I was that hypermobile growing up because there were other dancers who were more hypermobile than I was — but I was still more hypermobile than the average person.

[1:11:18] Skylar Brandt: Yeah.

[1:11:20] Dr. Linda Bluestein: Well, Skylar, this has been such a fantastic conversation. I've just really loved chatting with you and learning from you. And I know that all the listeners are really going to enjoy it. We want to know where we can find you and where people can learn more about you and come see your performances.

[1:11:38] Skylar Brandt: Yes! Well, I do most of my posting on Instagram, so @skylarbrant — just my name. That's usually where I'm most active. Or you can go to my website, which is skylarbrandt.com. But that's it really.

[1:11:53] Dr. Linda Bluestein: Well, this was so much fun and I know you're super busy, so we really appreciate you taking the time to chat with us. Do you have any parting thoughts before we go?

[1:12:06] Skylar Brandt: Thank you both. Thank you, Linda. Thank you, Jen. It's been such a pleasure and I love talking about these things — I think they're important. The last hypermobility hack I have for people, or parting words, is: don't forget to take time off. That's such an important one. It's obvious — obvious to me, maybe not to everyone. Take days off to heal and recover mentally, physically, emotionally. I think you grow in those periods that you're not in the studio. You're growing too.

[1:12:41] Jennifer Milner: Absolutely. That's a great one. Thank you for saying it out loud for everybody. It's always great to talk to you.

[1:12:47] Dr. Linda Bluestein: That's a perfect one to end on. So thank you again.

[1:12:49] Skylar Brandt: Thank you.

[1:13:53] Jennifer Milner: Well, that was such a fantastic conversation with ABT principal dancer Skylar Brandt, and I hope you enjoyed it as much as I did. Thank you for listening to this week's episode of the Bendy Bodies Podcast with the Hypermobility MD. I have lots of other resources including my newsletter, the Bendy Bulletin. Check them out on Substack at hypermobilitymd.substack.com. You can help us spread the word about joint hypermobility and connective tissue disorders by leaving a review and sharing the podcast. This really helps raise awareness about these complex conditions.
[1:14:23] Did you know that I also offer one-on-one support for both clients and healthcare professionals? Whether you're living with a connective tissue disorder or caring for someone who is, I've got your back. Check out my coaching and mentorship options on the services page of my website at hypermobilitymd.com. You can find me, Dr. Linda Bluestein, on Instagram, Facebook, TikTok, Twitter, or LinkedIn at hypermobilitymd. You can find Human Content, my producing team, at Human Content Pods on TikTok and Instagram. You can also find full video episodes up every week on YouTube at Bendy Bodies Podcast.
[1:14:57] As you all know, we love bringing on guests with unique perspectives to share. However, these unscripted discussions do not reflect the views or opinions held by me or the Bendy Bodies team. Although we may share healthcare perspectives on the podcast, no statements shared on Bendy Bodies should be considered medical advice. Please always consult a qualified medical healthcare provider for your own care. To learn about the Bendy Bodies Program disclaimer and ethics policy, submission verification and licensing terms, and HIPAA release terms, or to reach out with any questions, please visit bendybodiespodcast.com. Bendy Bodies Podcast is a Human Content production. Thank you for being a part of our community, and we'll catch you next time on the Bendy Bodies Podcast.