Overcoming Pain in EDS: Building Stronger Bodies with Whealth Founders Katie & Andrew Dettelbach

[00:41] Dr. Linda Bluestein: Welcome back, every bendy body, to the Bendy Bodies Podcast with your host and founder, Dr. Linda Bluestein, the Hypermobility MD. If you're like me, you have struggled with trying to find the right amount of movement that works for your body with joint hypermobility. This could be so challenging because the target is often moving, right? So what works one day in one year is not the same thing as what works another day or another year.
[01:05] I'm so excited to chat today with the founders of Whealth, Katie and Andrew Dettelbach. Both Katie and Andrew have hypermobile EDS. Katie combined her background as a critical care nurse, her love for movement and Pilates, and her frustrations as a patient to develop an online method to address the limitations of chronic pain and hypermobility. She's spoken in the U.S. and internationally, educating other professionals and sharing her personal story about pelvic health and chronic pain. Her program Whealth has helped thousands of people worldwide overcome limitations and return to doing what they love.
[01:42] Andrew has a degree in kinesiology, clinical experience in sports injury rehab, and has coached tens of thousands of people around the world, helping them overcome their chronic pain. He has overcome a myriad of chronic injuries since the age of 8. He is excited to share how it is possible for everyone to make profound, positive impacts on their lives.
[02:04] I'm so excited for you to hear from them so you can get some ideas of how you can improve your functional capacity as well. As always, this information is for educational purposes only and is not a substitute for personalized medical advice. Stick around until the very end so you don't miss any of our special hypermobility hacks. Let's get started.
[02:27] All right, Andrew and Katie, I am so excited to chat with you both and learn more about what you've been up to and your program Whealth, which is incredible, and how you've been teaching people to work better with their bodies, their hypermobile bodies. But Katie, let's start with you. Can you start out by telling us what struggles in particular you have had with your hypermobility?

[02:51] Katie Dettelbach: Yeah, so I, like many people, was diagnosed later in life after I had had my second child. I had experienced pretty significant pelvic organ prolapses — multiple prolapses — after what was not a traumatic birth or anything, a very straightforward, fast labor and delivery. And that kind of just took me in a direction of looking for answers as to why. And ultimately that led to me finally being diagnosed with hypermobile EDS.

[03:27] Dr. Linda Bluestein: You're super passionate, both of you, about helping other people. And I see Andrew with a dog toy, so I'm going to just let people know if they're watching on YouTube, you have a puppy, right? So we may hear a puppy, we may see a little distraction here and there.

[03:44] Andrew Dettelbach: I apologize for that. I had no time.

[03:46] Dr. Linda Bluestein: No worries. I just thought I'd mention it because I've had puppies, plenty of puppies, so I know how that is. Okay, so you are both super passionate about helping people with hypermobility and helping them regain function as much as possible. So, Katie, can you also tell us how you became so passionate about that and what continues to drive you?

[04:13] Katie Dettelbach: Yeah, I think I struggled, again, like a lot of us with this diagnosis, with just struggling for a lot of years with kind of unexplained frequent pains, injuries, things that just always seemed a bit more challenging. I tended to push through a lot of that stuff because I was very active and I wanted to continue to be active, but it was just very frustrating that I felt like everyone around me could do all of these things and not be getting injured all the time. And I was constantly in pain and injured, and it just felt like it was so much harder for me.
[04:48] It wasn't until I began learning about hypermobility and Ehlers-Danlos syndrome. And as a registered nurse, I was very surprised that it was something we maybe covered a tiny bit in one day of lecture on. And it was of course the most extreme cases that they showcased in that lecture. So it was not anything that was ever on my radar as a possibility.
[05:19] When I learned more about it and it was checking all of the boxes, it really began to steer me in a direction of being able to train my body differently. I trained as a Pilates instructor at that point and began changing the way that I was trying to do strength work. And that was so profound for me in terms of pain and how I felt and how I was able to function. It just, hands down, was one of the biggest things that helped me. But it did require a slightly different approach than the typical group classes or strength work that would ultimately lead to injury every time for me.

[06:03] Dr. Linda Bluestein: Yeah, and a lot of people struggle with that, right? They're told that they need to move more, but then when they try different things — this definitely happened to me as well, and I know a lot of people can resonate with that — you might try different things, but it can be hard to find the right thing. So I'm really excited. We'll kind of in the second half dig into the Whealth program and that specific aspect.
Andrew, I want to talk about your background a little bit. So you also are diagnosed with hypermobile EDS. And your case is rather unusual. I mean, of course, we've talked to other males who have hypermobile EDS, but a lot of people looking at you would be like, "Really?" Because you're obviously a strong guy — and we're going to talk about "shirtless dude" in a minute too, how you got that handle. But tell us about your diagnosis experience and what life is like for you.

[07:01] Andrew Dettelbach: So I was diagnosed because Katie was like, if I have hypermobile Ehlers-Danlos syndrome, you have to have it. So I ended up going to a geneticist with Kaiser and he diagnosed me right there, did a bunch of tests that I'd never seen other people do. He even looked at how my big toe kind of turned — not at the proximal joint, but the distal joint, how it rotated — and used that as one of the guides. But he looked at all kinds of stuff and he said I definitely have it.
[07:35] I didn't end up getting tested for Marfan's because he wasn't concerned. He said, I don't see that being an issue for you. And if we do get you tested, it could increase your insurance a lot and mess with life insurance and whatnot.
[07:53] For me, I've experienced pain since I was 8, and I just kind of figured that was normal. So when Katie was like, you should go get tested for this thing, I'm like, I don't know what that is, I've never heard of it. I just kind of assumed that having chronic pain was just a part of life. And we would have members come into our program and be like, "I'm 31 years old and this is my first pain." And I'm like, "What?" That's wild. I've had pain every month of my life since I was a little kid.

[08:21] Katie Dettelbach: I think I would add for context that I had seen him doing a lot of party tricks, which was why I was like — he was much, much bendier than I was.

[08:33] Andrew Dettelbach: Yeah, I've done a lot of things with my shoulders, my toes, and my abdominal region to grab attention on social media, which has been beneficial. I don't do them all day every day, but they definitely grab some attention. So that was my introduction to it. And everything I know about hypermobility comes from Katie and all of the stuff that she has read. So she's the ultimate person in this situation.
[09:00] As far as my strength and physique goes, I do find that sometimes people accuse me of being a liar, like I don't actually have Ehlers-Danlos syndrome or hypermobile Ehlers-Danlos syndrome. And I see that people also accuse me of being on steroids, and that's also not true. So I think people kind of see what they want to see on social media.

[09:22] Dr. Linda Bluestein: I'm sorry, there are some vicious people out there. I posted something not too long ago and got mostly positive feedback, but there were a couple of people that said it was misleading — it was actually related to the KLK research findings. And I said something about, you know, did they find the gene? And they're like, you were so misleading. I was like, it says right there, "Did they find the gene?" — it's phrased as a question for a reason.
[09:51] But then someone sent me an article, a journal article that said "Trolls just want to have fun." And it was literally an article about the psychological makeup of trolls. So anyway, I digress.

[10:14] Katie Dettelbach: Oh, interesting. I might need you to send that to me.

[10:16] Andrew Dettelbach: How much jealousy and self-frustration is in that article? I find that a lot of it comes from a place of unhappiness within that individual.

[10:28] Dr. Linda Bluestein: Yeah, absolutely. And there's such incredible heterogeneity amongst these conditions, right? So I want to back up a second and talk about when you went to the geneticist. You mentioned possible Marfan's, and I think some people might hear that and go, oh wait, I thought if I might have Marfan's I should get genetically tested, because if you have potentially vascular EDS or Marfan's, sometimes we might do things to lower the blood pressure or do more intense vascular studies. So was the geneticist's threshold of concern really high? Because of course we have various different clinical findings that can overlap.

[11:13] Andrew Dettelbach: He wasn't concerned. He said I didn't have a lot of the physical features. Katie was more concerned about that.

[11:22] Katie Dettelbach: And he's 6'5", he's very tall. And when he was younger, before he had a lot of muscle, he was very lanky. And he was like, "Well, why would I go to the geneticist to get diagnosed with EDS if there's nothing to do for it anyway? What's the point?" And I was like, "Well, it would just be good for a professional to evaluate you and just make sure that they're not concerned about anything else." Yeah, more for his heart than anything.

[11:46] Andrew Dettelbach: So I never have gotten tested. I could possibly get an echo at some point in the future just to see, but I haven't done that either.

[11:54] Dr. Linda Bluestein: Yeah, that's something that I personally do normally recommend when people are newly diagnosed. I usually do get an echo just for a baseline and just to make sure the aorta is not enlarged — thank God it usually isn't — but just to rule that out.

[12:09] Andrew Dettelbach: If you feel I should do it, I'll go do it. Katie's definitely on the side of, go do those things.

[12:17] Katie Dettelbach: And he's definitely more like, if it's not broken, don't mess with it.

[12:21] Andrew Dettelbach: I understand that if it breaks, you're done. So.

[12:25] Dr. Linda Bluestein: Right, right. You're not my patient, but I will say that if you were, I would definitely be saying, go get an echo. Because if you think about it, it is one of the lowest risk, highest yield information tests that you can do. It's not invasive, and it's very beneficial. So, okay.
[12:58] And by the way, we did not discuss this beforehand. But I think it's one of those things — if there is any enlargement of the aorta, and for those listening who are not familiar with what that is, that's the biggest blood vessel that comes out of your heart and takes blood to the entire body. So that blood vessel is huge. And if it does get enlarged and it ruptures at some point, that's a terrible, usually deadly complication. So you do want to catch that as early as possible. You know, 99.999% of the time you're not going to see that, and you probably don't even have mitral valve prolapse or any of those other things, but it's just such an easy way to rule that out.

[13:46] Katie Dettelbach: I think sometimes having the healthcare background — as a cardiac nurse, having seen patients code from a dissection — I'm on the same page with you. It's so low risk, just get the echo, just have a baseline. And I think sometimes that's the difference between having a background in acute care and not. I think sometimes we go worst case scenario just having seen it, you know?

[14:08] Dr. Linda Bluestein: Yeah. I have a family member who had a fracture recently and the wound wasn't closing well. And I'm thinking of all the cases of osteomyelitis that I've seen in my lifetime. You can easily go to that worst place in your head, but I think on balance it's super important to do that. So, okay, cool. I just wanted to ask how you got started as the shirtless dude.

[14:32] Andrew Dettelbach: It would have been about 2015. I was starting to make content with my previous company and previous business partner, and we needed to take the shirt off to show something for the scapula. And the social media video just did incredibly well. So then I put the shirt on for some videos, the videos weren't doing well, I took it off again, the video did really well, so I just left it off. We'd be doing something for the foot or the knee and I'd leave the shirt off and the video would do well. And our social media grew exponentially over that period of a year. And people just started referring to me as the shirtless dude or the shirtless guy in the video rather than using my name. It just kind of stuck.

[15:12] Dr. Linda Bluestein: That's awesome, I love it. Okay, Katie, let's go back to you. Have you had some other significant injuries besides the prolapses that you talked about? And a lot of gynecologists aren't necessarily looking for that amongst younger patients, so that can be really frustrating. Can you tell us a little bit more about your diagnostic process?

[15:45] Katie Dettelbach: Yeah, so once I did start diving in and learning more, a lot of things made sense, even all the way back to when I was an infant. After I was born, they called it floppy baby syndrome. I didn't hold my head up for a long time, past the age when babies are supposed to be able to hold up their head. My mom said I was like holding wet spaghetti. She had been referred to a neurologist and they had done a bunch of tests on me and they just didn't know what it was. They had ruled out everything they knew how to test for and said, just take her home and love her. The next year, my mom took me back and said I had caught up in all her milestones. And the neurologist said, this is now the second time in my career that I've seen a baby with that much floppiness catch up. He just said, I don't know what it is, but keep doing whatever you're doing.
[16:42] And then, you know, just frequent injuries. Specifically shoulders, a lot of low back pain even as a teenager. My shoulders still sublux really, really easily, so I've done a lot of strength work on that. Neck stuff has been an ongoing challenge where strengthening is helpful. I got in a car accident, got rear-ended, and that really set off a cascade for a couple of years where I was struggling with a lot of different issues.
[17:26] And then a lot of the — I've kind of always had low blood pressure and the fatigue — and was finally diagnosed with mast cell activation syndrome, which has been really helpful for me. One of my biggest complaints has been GI issues. I was diagnosed with IBS very young, and it's like I've never been able to figure out the right combination of things to really improve the GI issues. Actually, treating the mast cell stuff has been extremely helpful for that, which has really improved my quality of life in that area.

[18:07] Dr. Linda Bluestein: Yeah, that's so fascinating to me because I feel like gastroenterologists in general should know so much more about mast cell activation syndrome than they do. I also was diagnosed with irritable bowel — probably older than you — but I had GI problems going back quite a ways, and that was definitely not on anyone's radar then. And I see that with my patients and clients who are seeing gastroenterologists. Usually they'll scope you and rule out the clear-cut things like inflammatory bowel disease or ulcers, but working with nutrition and supplements and other things to improve mast cell activation — or medications — does not seem like it's really on their radar.

[18:54] Katie Dettelbach: Yeah, it was actually just a primary care doc that put me on the montelukast, and that improved my IBS symptoms more than anything else I've done, so.

[19:07] Dr. Linda Bluestein: Oh, that's really interesting. Okay, Andrew, what about you? What has been your most significant injury?

[19:14] Andrew Dettelbach: My disc herniation in 2013 — that was a two-year-long process. I had a 10-millimeter herniation. My uncles had six back surgeries before I had that herniation, and I knew I didn't want to go the surgical route because he's still in severe pain. He's got a pump in his body and he can push the pump and it injects fluid into his spine, but they missed, so it doesn't work. And then you'd have to have another surgery to move that. It just looked like an arduous, ridiculous, expensive, and fruitless process.
[19:52] So I decided to go the more conservative route and just did the smallest amount of exercise I could possibly do on a daily basis. I was given a sheet with five exercises on it from a physical therapist at Kaiser, and he said I needed to do these. I did them religiously and I was struggling heavily. I was taking a bunch of medications. I went through a thousand ibuprofen in three months — don't recommend doing that — on top of all the other things they had prescribed to me. I felt like my life was just a blur during that time. I'd struggle to go to the bathroom, couldn't sleep, couldn't stand up straight. I was kind of curled over and just hobbling around. It was a brutal existence.
[20:47] But I did everything I could on a daily basis to try and make marginal improvements. And I did. It was like these 1% improvements every two weeks. I'm like, oh, I'm able to walk a little bit farther — we're talking like 30 steps more. I'm able to do a little bit more extension in my lower back. I can sleep for 15 minutes longer a night. I was looking for these tiny wins and just kind of held on to those things over time.
[21:12] And then I met a CrossFit coach who was like, hey, you should come to my gym, I could really help you. And I'm like, but CrossFit hurts people. How's that possible? And he said, not the way I teach. So I went to his gym and he taught me a few ways to move my body that helped really stabilize my core and my torso. As a result, I made like a 20% improvement in about a month. I stayed with him and I didn't touch a barbell or do any heavy lifting for about a year. I just did some of his strength training and made huge improvements everywhere in my body.
At the two-year mark, my sciatica was finally gone. I had sciatica down both sides — bulged and herniated to the left, bulged to the right. It was just this constant burning sensation down my legs at all times of the day. And it was just amazing when that was finally over.
[22:15] I've had hip impingement, shoulder impingement, a spur in my heel, plantar fasciitis, meniscus issues, labral issues everywhere. I landed on my head trying to do a backflip on a trampoline — that was a nice little process for my neck. I've had probably 20 rib subluxations. I've experienced pain in every joint. And I am grateful for it from my standpoint, because I've been able to help so many people as a result of my misfortune, which has kind of been a fortunate thing for a lot of other people.

[22:55] Dr. Linda Bluestein: We have that similarity of taking the things that have happened to us and trying to help other people, because all three of us have a diagnosis of hypermobile EDS, right? But each of our stories is different. And it's great that the two of you are together, have this company, and are helping so many people. I think if you can take these things that have happened to you and help other people, it just completely changes the narrative for you. That's really amazing.
[23:22] I think it's important for people to be aware — I hear people talk all the time about disc herniations. You mentioned 10 millimeters, so discs herniate all the time. Don't panic if you have a herniated disc, but the amount matters dramatically, and it matters where it's going and how far it's going, like out to the nerve sheath. Oftentimes if there is a bigger herniation, that's when surgery is more likely recommended by surgeons. And if you have foot drop or something, then that's a definite consideration. If you have a disc herniation and you literally cannot walk, cannot activate your anterior tibialis to walk, then that's an important consideration.
[24:15] But hopefully you see a neurosurgeon who is conservative enough, and/or you have another doctor making sure that you don't have those red flags — a bladder or bowel problem. Because yes, if you can avoid back surgery, you're absolutely — I totally agree with you 100%. It can oftentimes be the beginning of a cascade of things. I do have a number of patients who have had intrathecal pain pumps, which is probably what your uncle has. It infuses usually morphine through the pump — talk about a bandaid. You're putting an opioid directly into the CSF. And the people coming to see me are in pain, so it's not working for them. So there are a lot of people with those pain pumps who are not getting relief.

[25:08] Andrew Dettelbach: Yes. And I do want to say, I think we probably turn away one or two people a year because of those foot drop issues or bowel or bladder or sexual dysfunction related to their injuries. So it isn't something that is super common that we see. We usually get a lot of people who have been struggling for a year to 15 years with their pain. And oftentimes they'll look at their MRIs or X-rays and say, I have these things. And we have to educate them and say, well, everyone's going to have bulges and herniations at some point in their life. And talk about all the research around pain and how you can take 100 people who don't have any back pain, give them an MRI, and all of them are going to show something abnormal on that image. And again, they don't have pain.

[25:56] Dr. Linda Bluestein: Right, right. For me, when I realized that the amount of pain that you have and the amount of damage that you have in your body are not always directly related — that's when a huge light bulb went off. Because I was struggling with so much pain myself, and it was like, okay, you can have things in your body — I mean, none of our bodies are perfect, all kinds of things going on — but we can function well. And at the end of the day, for me it's really about function, and obviously for you guys too, which is fabulous.
[26:28] That was one of the things I definitely wanted to ask about in the second half — the Whealth program and how you assess for things like that. So it's great that you make sure. One more question before we take a quick break. Andrew, what are some really important things — maybe three important things — that you do in your daily life to mitigate your symptoms?

[26:56] Andrew Dettelbach: For me, I need to alternate between lifting heavier loads and really pushing my body to build mass and create stability, and then also doing more steady-state cardio or lighter exercise. Finding that balance between not pushing my body too much with too much heavy load too many days a week, and not doing enough. So it's like this middle ground between the two, and as a result, I feel great.
[27:31] Sleep is huge. If I'm not getting adequate sleep, then everything goes downhill, from my mind to my body.
[27:45] And then stress management and anxiety. We've had some stressors and anxieties in our life recently. As a result, I've had to stop pushing myself as hard in the gym, but also just making sure that I'm doing things that help to reduce that stress and anxiety. Because when you have a lot of stress and anxiety and you're trying to push your body and your mind too much, things will inevitably start to deteriorate. You might have pains pop up. And we see that so much with all of our people in our communities — when they have a life stressor pop up, their job changes, they have a kid, whatever kind of change, there's oftentimes a setback or a new pain that pops up that coincides with it.
[28:34] So: exercise, sleep, stress management.

[28:37] Dr. Linda Bluestein: I literally interviewed Dr. Tina Wang yesterday. She's an incredibly brilliant person in the fascia space, a PM&R doctor, and she was talking about some of the actual biochemical things that happen when we're under stress that make us more susceptible to pain. And we know that any kind of stress — physiologic, psychologic — increases mast cell degranulation, which also makes us more sensitive to pain. So there are physiologic reasons for what you're saying, and I think it's important for people to understand that. Because I know for me, when I was in a lot of pain and these things would happen, I'd be more stressed and I'd be in more pain. I thought it was my fault. I thought, I'm really doing something wrong, and the pain must just be in my head. So I think that's an important point about stress.

[29:30] Andrew Dettelbach: Yeah, it becomes a cycle. As the pain increases, your stress increases, other things in your life get worse, and then it just kind of cascades. And it's like, if you can stop that cycle — which is hard to say because everyone's lives are so different — it comes down to pinpointing the easiest things that you can kind of get rid of or change quickly to help break that cycle.

[29:51] Dr. Linda Bluestein: Yeah, definitely. Anxiety is, of course, a very common thing with joint hypermobility. And so often we get anxious and then we blame ourselves for being anxious, or we're anxious about being anxious, which of course is also a feed-forward cycle. So we shouldn't be anxious about being anxious. Yeah, exactly. So I do want to talk about what you were saying about sleep a little bit more, but we're going to take a quick break. And when we come back, we want to hear some of your tips for sleeping better. We'll be right back.
[30:30] We're back with Katie and Andrew, and we were talking with Andrew about some of the things that he does to manage his symptoms. You were talking about sleep. Can you share just a couple of specific things regarding sleep that you do?

[30:43] Andrew Dettelbach: Sure. So a lot of the sleep information that I'm about to share comes from Matthew Walker, and I think Andrew Huberman has had him on his podcast many times. There are some negative things that have been said about Matthew Walker, but regardless, these are the things I find helpful.
[31:01] So reducing the amount of light that you're experiencing at night is huge. Turning off overhead lights, trying to use hallway lights rather than the lights in your living room or kitchen to light the room can really help get your brain to a place of, okay, it's dark, it's time to get ready for sleep and start to produce some melatonin.
[31:23] If you are on your phone, there's a mode where it turns the screen more yellow — I forget what it's called — but if you can max out that yellow, it changes the color a little bit, but you get used to it. And that'll also help your brain get ready for sleep.
[31:42] Temperature is important. If it is too warm in the room and your brain isn't able to drop its temperature by four degrees in order to fall asleep, you're going to toss and turn a bit. 68 degrees room temperature is ideal. Not everyone is able to do that, but if you can find a way to decrease the room temperature with a fan or air conditioning, that can be really beneficial for getting you to fall asleep much faster.
[32:12] Making sure not to drink too much or eat food too close to bedtime. If you drink too much water before bed, you're going to wake up and have to use the restroom. And if you eat too close to bed — we're talking like an hour, hour and a half — if you can go two hours without eating before bed, you're going to have a much more solid, deep, and REM sleep as a result.
[32:37] I love potato chips. If I'm eating potato chips or popcorn right before I go to bed, my deep sleep and REM sleep will decrease significantly that night. I'll toss and turn more, I'll have trouble falling asleep. That spike in sugar right before bed really prevents my mind from relaxing. So if you do find yourself hungry, eating a protein of some sort would be a better option, like peanut butter or a piece of chicken or whatever.
[33:09] So those are the big things I find to be the most beneficial for getting your body ready for sleep and then staying asleep.

[33:16] Dr. Linda Bluestein: Yeah, I definitely have seen and read a lot of Matt Walker's work, and I think those are all really great tips. And I think so often people want to jump into medication or something that seems like it's going to be a quick fix. But yeah, doing something like the things you've described is so much more sustainable. So I think that's great.

[33:45] Andrew Dettelbach: You know, I've been prescribed all kinds of things from medications to supplements, but when you take these things, you find yourself being exhausted the next day. Sure, they might help you sleep, but then you're not able to wake up and live your life. So there's usually some sort of a side effect associated with those that doesn't help you for the rest of the day.

[34:04] Dr. Linda Bluestein: Yeah, definitely. Okay, so Katie, I want to come back to you. As a nurse, you've obviously worked with a lot of different patients and had a lot of training in various things. What have you noticed — especially maybe focusing on younger people — in terms of people being prescribed to rest versus finding that sweet spot, like Andrew was talking about, where you kind of start increasing your activity, working on strength, trying to get back some of that function?
[34:45] Do you find that to be challenging in the people that you work with? Because I feel like it's a common thing — I'll be working with a patient and they've been told by their doctor, well, you need to rest. And it's like, maybe, but probably not complete rest and not for the duration that you have been resting, because oftentimes the body just gets weaker and weaker. So how have you approached that?

[35:10] Katie Dettelbach: Yeah, I see a wide range. I definitely see some people come in and say, I was told to rest, I was told I can't do all of these things, I need to stop running, I should only swim. So there are definitely people who have interacted with a provider who has instilled a bit of that fragility mindset in them. Versus then there are some people who come in and say, yeah, my doctor said it was no big deal, I can just do everything like everyone else. And then there are some who are more in the middle.
[35:47] But yeah, there's definitely a lot of education that we do around people really being able to listen to their body and get to a point where the sensations in their body aren't adding to their anxiety or fear, but that they're able to listen to it and start to distinguish between good pains and bad pains. When you are exercising, there is soreness, there is muscle fatigue, there are sensations that I wouldn't necessarily call good, but they're not hurting you and they are sometimes an essential part. So we do a lot of work with people just learning their own body, learning when to push and when not to push, and teaching people to also look at the other factors in their life.
[36:37] If they're having a flare in another area with mast cell or POTS or something, then that's probably not the time to try to push their weights heavier or double down with their workouts. Also with women and their menstrual cycles — we talk about that because there are certain points in the cycle where it would be good to try to lift a bit heavier or push yourself a little more, and then there are other points where that's not something we would recommend because we just tend to see a lot more flare-ups.
I also find there are personality types. Some people are very Type A — they want to go all in, they want to do their workout every single day. Those people often do need the message of, you know what, you do need to rest more, you need to dial it back. You can't show up 100% in every facet of your life and think that you're going to be able to sustain that. And then there are other people who err more on the side of, well, I'm in pain, I can't do anything. And they kind of need more encouragement of, but actually moving can help your pain. I know it can be scary, but sometimes that is exactly what you need.

[37:47] Dr. Linda Bluestein: Yeah, and I think knowing where someone is in that mindset is very important because that can also change over time, right? For most of my life I was more Type A, but then when I was having a lot of pain, I definitely didn't push myself and got less and less active. I would be like, okay, I can go up the stairs one time today, so I better plan ahead. And now I go up and down the stairs as much as I need to. So it is very important to assess where someone is in that process because that greatly influences the recommendations. So that's great.
[38:29] Tell us about the Whealth program. We want to hear — and either of you can start — what it is, why you developed it, and then we'll talk a little bit about who are good candidates for the program.

[38:43] Katie Dettelbach: Yeah, so we have a couple of different programs, but we made one program that is specifically for people who are hypermobile. I was pretty passionate about making that resource because I just wasn't finding much available like that. We had our Limitless program, which is geared toward people with chronic pain but not specific to hypermobility — just anyone with chronic pain. And over the years, more and more resources like that have popped up for people with chronic pain, but I just wasn't seeing much available in an online format that was easy for people to access from home, when it's convenient for them, that was giving really good education on hypermobility.
[39:29] So that's why we made that program. Throughout the process, we work with a local medical illustrator, and she comes and she paints our bodies. And so throughout the filming of that program, we did a painting with her every single day for a couple of weeks. And that helps us teach people, for a specific exercise, where they should be feeling it. That's something I've seen to be very valuable for everyone, but especially for us hypermobile folks who sometimes aren't as good at knowing where we should feel things. A lot of us are very good at compensating and imitating, so someone can demonstrate a movement and a hypermobile person can often copy them, but oftentimes there's a lot of compensation going on. So helping them understand the point of the exercise, why they're doing it, where they should feel it, is part of our education and is something we've found to be really helpful.
[40:34] And then we cover all of the systemic things that we can see in folks who are hypermobile, which a lot of people coming in aren't aware of. We have some folks who have been diagnosed with hypermobile EDS, some with joint hypermobility syndrome, and some people who have never been diagnosed with anything but are like, yes, I'm definitely bendy. For some folks the education is things they're already aware of, but for others it's stuff they've never heard before. And it's always fun to see those light-bulb moments — like, wait a minute, oh my gosh, this explains so much.
And then we go into exercises. It starts at the very basics — anyone can come in with no exercise background. We also have people who are very high-level athletes, and sometimes we have to prep them with, I know it's going to feel boring, but we have to go back to the basics and really create that solid foundation. And when they do that and then return to their sport, they often find that they have a lot less injury and that a lot of that foundational stuff was just lacking for them.

[41:56] Andrew Dettelbach: I think you did a good job covering it.

[41:58] Katie Dettelbach: Yeah, and then we delve into our five pillars, which are movement — and a lot of our forward-facing education is around movement. I think that's sometimes easier for people to grasp onto than nutrition, stress management, or sleep. Those things can be more challenging. So we do a lot of outward education on movement, but the program then covers stress management, sleep and restoration, nutrition—

Andrew Dettelbach: Environment.

[42:33] Katie Dettelbach: Environment, yeah.

[42:34] Andrew Dettelbach: Mindset.

[42:36] Katie Dettelbach: And mindset.

[42:37] Andrew Dettelbach: The environmental aspects are very important and often overlooked. So we do have a community that goes with our program where it is just really great to have hundreds of people who have been diagnosed or think that they have hypermobility of some sort together in the same group. You've got some veterans who have succeeded, they're back to doing all the things they wanted to do again. And for those people to be able to share with the new people what they've been able to achieve, and then also have a group of people going through this process together — it's really awesome to have them supporting each other.
[43:15] But also just teaching people that the people you surround yourself with in your life — not online, but the people in your daily life — makes a pretty dramatic impact on how you're going to be able to take care of yourself. If you're around people who are not interested in doing exercise or being healthy, it's going to be harder for you to do the same. So trying to make sure that you're around individuals who have similar goals to you.

[43:40] Dr. Linda Bluestein: Yeah, that makes sense. There's so much data showing that if you are around smokers, you're more likely to smoke. If you're around people who aren't paying attention to their health, like you said, it affects you. So I think that makes a lot of sense.
So there's also a community where they can communicate with each other. Is it via an app or the website?

[44:06] Andrew Dettelbach: We keep it in Facebook. People say, a forum could be great or an app, but Facebook is by far the most versatile platform I've ever used for groups. The fact that people can upload, say, 20 videos at a time and get evaluated on their exercises and how they're moving — I'm able to then provide feedback. We have another coach who also provides feedback. Her name is Ai. She's from Japan. And that's been really beneficial for people. And then we can do our live coaching calls in there as well.

[44:46] Katie Dettelbach: Yeah, I think the community is really special. And it's something I really wanted to be a part of the program because when I was learning about hypermobility, there are certainly a lot of groups and forums and Reddit threads and things like that, which can be helpful — I find them helpful for things like finding local providers who are EDS-aware. But I found that those groups sometimes had a very negative focus. It almost felt like sometimes it became a competition of who was worse off, and it wasn't very solution-focused. No one was looking for the silver linings or the positivity. I often felt more anxious and more depressed when I would read through those groups.
[45:32] So it was important to me to have a community that — it's okay to vent about the challenging stuff, we're not going to pretend it's not hard because sometimes it's just really hard and that's okay — but always encouraging people to come back to a place of, okay, now what can you do about it? What are the actionable things today that you can do to improve the situation, no matter how bad it is? The community has just been really special.
[45:58] With healthcare and HIPAA, it can be really isolating, especially if you're a young person dealing with some challenges and you look around at your friends in real life and think, why is it so much harder for me? They're not dealing with this. And so to be put into a community of like-minded people who have similar challenges but who are also focused on improving has been really beneficial. And it's been so cool to see people in certain cities become friends, meet up in person, and do workouts together.

[46:29] Dr. Linda Bluestein: That's great. So it sounds like there's a lot more to the program than — for me anyway, you know, I've seen some of the videos, which are fantastic, and I love how you give modifications. You say, okay, you should be feeling this in this particular spot, and if you're not, make these adjustments. That's really, really important. But it sounds like there's a lot more to the program.
[46:55] Is it possible — you mentioned the coaching and uploading videos — so if someone is — because the program is online — can somebody get feedback on their form?

Andrew Dettelbach: Yes.

[47:11] Katie Dettelbach: Yes. That is part of the program — you have unlimited feedback. People can post in the community. Some people prefer to post anonymously. Some people aren't comfortable uploading a video of themselves doing an exercise, so they may just describe with words what's going on and what they're feeling. We can give feedback that way, but we do definitely encourage people to give a video because we can coach you so much better if we can see what's happening.

[47:35] Andrew Dettelbach: I always say, if a picture tells a thousand words, then a 60-second video tells you a lot of words.

[47:41] Dr. Linda Bluestein: Yeah, exactly. Okay, that's really great to know because we know that moving more is important for a lot of us, or moving as much as we can without causing problems. And at different points in your life, you're going to have different thresholds for movement. But we also want to make sure we're doing it the right way. So it's great that you do actual coaching.
[48:06] So who would not be a candidate for the programs that you do — the Limitless Program and the Hypermobility Program?

[48:18] Katie Dettelbach: Yeah, our general guidance is that if anyone's ever not sure if the program is right for them, we just tell them to consult with their medical provider or physician. If they're explaining something specific going on — like a disc herniation — we'll say, have you spoken to your neurologist? Are they okay with you doing exercise? If not, ask them for a referral to a physical therapist who may be able to help you hands-on in person.
[48:48] Obviously, any concerning symptoms — anytime someone has foot drop, loss of sensation, bowel or bladder issues, sexual dysfunction, anything like that — we're going to tell that person, we're not the right thing for you. You need to go see someone in person right away.
[49:08] But most of our clients are people who have done a lot of physical therapy, either haven't found it beneficial enough or it's not convenient enough with having to drive there in person. And in the hypermobility group, a lot of people go to PT and actually end up worse off. I think it's just important to have a PT who is knowledgeable about hypermobility and who isn't trying to do things that are going to make it worse. We have a lot of people say, "I did this exercise in physical therapy for months and I was never doing it right. I didn't feel it where I was supposed to feel it and it wasn't helpful." And with a little bit of cueing and adjusting, they're like, "Oh my gosh, it's so helpful. Now I know why they were trying to have me do that for months."

[50:03] Dr. Linda Bluestein: Not all physical therapists do that, but some of them — when you come back for the next session, they always ask, how are you doing? But I think it's also good when they have you show them the exercises, because number one, if you can't remember what they are, then you probably weren't doing them. And then they can see whether you're doing it right. Because oftentimes they show us the exercise and we're like, yeah, we got this. And then you go home and your form isn't right or whatever.

[50:34] Andrew Dettelbach: To go off of that — anyone is able to do the program as long as they're cleared by their doctor and they're ready to put in effort. That's really the requirement. If you're ready to do the work, then there you go. Because it's not just something you can get and then you feel better. You have to do it.

[50:51] Katie Dettelbach: You have to actually do it. We have to remind people of that sometimes. Buying the program is great, but if you don't actually do the work, it's not going to help you.

[51:02] Dr. Linda Bluestein: Right, right. Yeah, that's an excellent point. So in terms of doing the work, is there a certain amount of time per day that people should be thinking about? Like, do I have this much time to devote to my health and improving my function? Is there a minimum and/or an ideal amount of time?

[51:24] Andrew Dettelbach: This is a fun question because everyone has a different schedule. What we often see is that some people will be incredibly busy but still get an hour done each day. We all have the same 24 hours in a day. So I think it ultimately comes down to how much you are willing to sacrifice to put into this.
[51:46] Now, if you're not willing to sacrifice that much, then we say at least 15 minutes a day. And that can be broken up. If you do the heavy lifting of watching the videos, you learn the exercises, and then you're like, I don't have time for a formulated workout — well, just pick a few of those exercises and do them throughout your day. Do multiple repetitions all day long whenever you can. You walk in the front door, you do them. You're doing the dishes, you're doing something with your feet. You're constantly working on this stuff throughout your day. It doesn't have to be a structured workout, although you will be able to really dive deep into how your body feels, and it will become a meditative process when you're able to sit down and focus on you and your body and how it feels.
[52:34] So if you can take that 15 minutes a day minimum and then increase it over time, that would be ideal.

[52:42] Katie Dettelbach: Yeah, anything is better than nothing, right?

[52:44] Dr. Linda Bluestein: Mm-hmm.

[52:44] Katie Dettelbach: But at least 15 minutes is kind of what we tell people for the minimum. And we do sometimes challenge people in our coaching. Andrew was saying there are some people who are like, I'm just so busy, I just don't have time. And sometimes we'll say, I want you to get your phone and pull up your screen time and tell me how much time every day you're spending on social media. And sometimes it's like, oh wow, look at that, I do have an hour. We definitely challenge people sometimes. We're not too pushy, but sometimes people get in their own way of succeeding.

[53:21] Dr. Linda Bluestein: That makes sense. And you said you start kind of with the basics. Are you starting with a certain part of the body, or how does that work?

[53:35] Andrew Dettelbach: Another fun question. We do full body with everyone. So if your main issue is your neck, you're going to be working on your feet and your wrists as well. The reason being — first of all, we're all connected. Everything can impact each other. So what your feet are doing could possibly impact how your neck is feeling.
[54:00] Neurologically, there's pain sensitization, where you have kind of trained your mind to focus so heavily on one area of pain — for the purpose of this, the neck. If your neck is the problem area and all you think about is your neck, and when you wake up you're thinking about your neck, you're brushing your teeth and your neck hurts, you drink water and your neck hurts — if that's your only thought throughout the day, then your brain is literally being trained to focus more on the neck and your pain can get worse as a result. So when you have someone focus on their feet and their wrists and their knees and their hips and their back, they have to take their brain power and focus elsewhere. It can help to desensitize the area with pain. And that's been profound for people — they're like, oh, I realize that while I'm doing this work, my neck isn't hurting and I'm able to get some relief during this process.
[55:00] But also we need to have a strong body everywhere. So we take people from the basics. We start generally with isometric exercises. Isometric would be like a plank for those of you listening — where you don't move, you just hold that position. That's an isometric exercise. We can do that with the biceps, with the neck, with your feet, knees, hips, back — any joint in the body you can do an isometric exercise for. And that kind of helps people instill confidence. Oh, my joints are okay when I do some strengthening. And then we can start to do some larger range-of-motion exercises, and then we can start to add resistance. And eventually you see these people doing push-ups and pull-ups and squats and deadlifts with load and feeling confident doing so.

[55:45] Dr. Linda Bluestein: Yeah, that's amazing. Because we know that we need to put load through the joints and through our tendons and ligaments in order for them to get stronger, but it can be scary.

[55:57] Andrew Dettelbach: Yes. And to that point, people will do like a bridge on the ground where you're lying on your back and you lift your hips upward. And they'll be like, this is hurting me. And I'll say, you know what, you should probably put ten pounds on your pelvis. And they're like, why? It hurts me right now. I'm like, well, actually using a little bit of resistance can force those muscles to really fire and you'll feel more stable as a result. I'm not saying go put 100 pounds on there — it's a light load. Ten pounds is something you pick up throughout your day. Just putting that on your pelvis, or for various exercises, increasing the resistance a little bit can actually make it feel better. And that can be really counterintuitive for people to hear.

[56:38] Dr. Linda Bluestein: Yeah, that definitely can be counterintuitive. That's really interesting. I suppose that also might help with the proprioceptive feedback. Which is important because proprioception — knowing where your body is in space without looking — can lead us to having dysfunctional movement patterns, and working on that can really be so helpful.

[56:56] Andrew Dettelbach: And that's where people recording themselves or watching themselves in a mirror can be really beneficial. And if you're uploading that to our groups, then we're like, hey, you're doing this — if you didn't notice. And then they'll start to pay attention to the faulty pattern that could be contributing to the pain that they're experiencing.

[57:16] Dr. Linda Bluestein: So I asked people if they had questions for both of you, and I did get a couple of questions that I want to throw in here before we get to the hypermobility hacks and start wrapping up. The first question was about osteoarthritis and hypermobile EDS, and basically, is it safe to exercise?

[57:33] Katie Dettelbach: Go ahead. I was going to say, you're the doctor. Anytime anyone has a medical — we do try to reiterate frequently that we're not giving medical advice.

[57:44] Dr. Linda Bluestein: Right.

[57:45] Katie Dettelbach: I don't know your history, I don't know all of your stuff, and I want you to go to your medical provider who knows you well. Yeah, but that being said—

[57:54] Andrew Dettelbach: Okay. So for the knee, for example — that would be a hotspot for people. If it's your knee and people are saying, is it okay for me to exercise? I'm like, are you walking around? Because that is technically a form of exercise. You could keep walking and that would be your exercise for the day. The answer would be yes, as long as you're moving in ranges of motion that feel good after you're done.
[58:17] That's an important thing because we work with a lot of people in pain, and it is impossible to do exercise without some discomfort or pain a lot of the time. So when people say, I'm doing this and it feels bad during, but then I'm done and I feel okay — that's okay. But if you're doing an exercise and you feel worse after, then we need to modify it by reducing the weight, reducing the range of motion, the number of repetitions, the sets. Modify it in some capacity. And if those modifications don't help, then we avoid it.
[58:51] So it really comes down to: what are the exercises, and have you tried them? Once you do, we can determine whether or not that exercise is okay for you, because there are going to be some exercises in the program that aren't ideal for you right now. That doesn't mean you should avoid them forever, but there are going to be other exercises in the program that you will be able to do and feel great doing. It's very nuanced.

[59:13] Dr. Linda Bluestein: Yeah, I totally agree. And that's the thing — if you have knee arthritis, avoiding movement is not the right approach. We really want to strengthen the muscles around that area because that will actually help offload the joints.

[59:36] Andrew Dettelbach: When I was graduating with my degree in kinesiology, we had a woman come speak to us. She was a marathon runner, she was 95, and she had severe osteoarthritis. She said the first three miles of every run was agonizing. And then the remaining 23 miles — I think she did a marathon every couple of days — she would feel amazing and she would feel amazing for a couple of days as a result. But it was always getting that synovial fluid into the joint, the lubricant in your joint, that was the most beneficial for her. She found that those three agonizing miles were nothing compared to the freedom she would have for several days afterward. So when we have arthritis, we want to get some movement to get some lubrication in there.

[1:00:30] Dr. Linda Bluestein: I have to ask — this 95-year-old woman, was she still doing marathons?

[1:00:33] Andrew Dettelbach: She was. This was 2013, so I don't know what's happened to her since.

[1:00:42] Dr. Linda Bluestein: Who knows? But at that time she was 95 and she was still doing marathons.

[1:00:47] Andrew Dettelbach: Yes.

[1:00:48] Dr. Linda Bluestein: Oh my gosh, that's crazy.

[1:00:49] Andrew Dettelbach: She was incredible.

Dr. Linda Bluestein: Wow.

Katie Dettelbach: Wow.

[1:00:49] Dr. Linda Bluestein: That's amazing. And I tell people all the time — a big thing is not just how you feel during, but how you feel afterwards and how you feel the next day, and where you feel the soreness. Feeling sore in your muscles — I love that. I miss that feeling because I don't get it as often as I used to. But I love having that delayed onset muscle soreness because that means I worked my muscles hard. But if you feel pain in your joints and if it lasts for a long time — I taught Zumba for a short period of time and I was so addicted, but I really couldn't teach class without putting myself into such a bad flare that sometimes would last for months. It was too repetitive. So I think it's really important to pay attention to those things: how your body feels, how long it's sore, and where it's sore.
[1:01:57] Another one of the questions was regarding upper cervical instability. We could probably all answer this question with literally just one word. Somebody asked if strong shoulders, upper backs, and necks make upper cervical instability less symptomatic. And the answer would be yes.

Katie Dettelbach: Yes.

Dr. Linda Bluestein: Yeah.

[1:02:12] Katie Dettelbach: And it can be tricky. Definitely some of that strength work, even very simple movements, can flare things up. When I was dealing with my neck stuff, that was definitely an incredible learning experience. I think that was probably the most frustrating injury I've ever navigated. Definitely more tears around that than anything else. And Andrew was really amazing with me during that time. I would try something and it would make it worse, try something and make it worse, and so we really had to get creative with making it so simple — literally just sitting and contracting my muscles without even providing any type of resistance at all, in very short increments. I had to start at the very basics and build it up.
[1:03:04] And it can be scary sometimes to do something, and if it causes the pain to be worse, it can make you want to avoid it altogether. But that's also not the answer because getting weaker — and we all know where that takes you.

[1:03:20] Andrew Dettelbach: It's also a vicious cycle.

[1:03:22] Katie Dettelbach: Yeah, so it is challenging. I definitely have a lot of empathy for people who are in that situation because it is really hard and very frustrating.

[1:03:32] Dr. Linda Bluestein: Yeah, it is very frustrating. And upper cervical instability is such a wide spectrum. Mild cervical instability is extremely common, and severe cervical instability, thankfully, is much more rare. There was a great article — I've interviewed Dr. Leslie Russek, who is an amazing physical therapist, a couple of times for this podcast — and we talked about an article that she wrote with my very dear friend, Dr. Patty Stott, who I rent space from here in Colorado. They talked about red flags. Kind of like what we were talking about for the lumbar spine, the red flags for cervical instability are really important, but most people, thankfully, don't have those red flags, or at least they're much more commonly on the mild spectrum.
[1:04:18] But I've been where you've been, Katie, where my neck is so flared up that trying to find those little tiny things that you can do to just start making some gains can be hard.
[1:04:32] Okay, so I like to finish every episode with hypermobility hacks. You could probably each give us lots of hacks, but we'll ask for each of you to give us one or two. We'll start with you, Katie.

[1:04:47] Katie Dettelbach: Obviously movement and strengthening — my number one hack. Number two is probably hydration, just staying really thoroughly hydrated. I add electrolytes, and I like Bloody Mary mix, which has a lot of salt in it. Having one of those once a day just helps me feel so much better.
[1:05:10] And then I would say self-massage has been really, really helpful. I had a tendency to want to stretch. I would feel tight a lot and would want to stretch, but ultimately that would make things worse. Learning to use a soft ball — not a lacrosse ball, it's too tough, but a soft ball — to do some self-massage gave me a lot of relief and didn't cause the pain to be worse the way stretching would. So yeah.

[1:05:37] Andrew Dettelbach: She's taking all of mine! I had nothing in my head and then you started taking everything.

[1:05:42] Katie Dettelbach: I'm going to pick different ones, sorry.

[1:05:49] Andrew Dettelbach: I felt so stressed the whole time.

[1:05:51] Katie Dettelbach: Do you want me to throw another one? I can answer one for you.

[1:05:53] Andrew Dettelbach: Go ahead.

[1:05:53] Katie Dettelbach: I know this one you do also. Both of us do this when traveling. Traveling can be tough for us when you're stuck sitting on an airplane, sitting in an airport, sitting in an Uber. For both of us that can just cause pain, you know? So taking those massage tools with us, and also just muscle activation of some kind — it doesn't even need to be any kind of structured workout, but those little loop resistance bands we carry in our backpacks every time we travel. Even on an airplane, slipping that up around your knees, you can do it in your seat and do some seated clamshells — that can help so much with any SI joint or low back pain. So I would say just incorporating some form of muscle activation into travel.

[1:06:38] Andrew Dettelbach: I'm going to add one.

[1:06:40] Katie Dettelbach: Yep.

[1:06:41] Andrew Dettelbach: Get away from anything that is negative. Anything that makes you go through a negative spiral about your diagnosis or about your pains — if you can avoid those things, that would be super helpful. I think a great example of this would be our current political climate. There's this extreme spread from the right and the left, and both sides just kind of have this self-fulfilling prophecy where they focus only on their own side. And it creates a lot of anxiety, frustration, and anger. The same thing could be said about your pain and injury. If you're around people or in groups where there's a lot of negativity, that's going to breed negativity in you.

[1:07:27] Dr. Linda Bluestein: Mm-hmm.
[1:07:28] Yeah, I totally agree. And I think those online supports can be super helpful, but like you said, Katie, they need to be solution-focused and not just about who's the sickest. The negativity can really impact you a lot. Totally agree.

[1:07:46] Katie Dettelbach: Yeah, and sometimes it's the people who are the worst off or who are in a period of a flare-up who are frequenting those groups. I don't see very many people saying, yeah, I feel great, in those groups. And I think sometimes continually exposing yourself to the worst-case scenarios of everything can just lead you to believe that that is your future. So just a healthy break from that can be good.

[1:08:15] Dr. Linda Bluestein: Yeah, I agree. I actually had Tarlov cyst surgery, and we're going to be talking to my surgeon in a few weeks. When I was trying to understand and learn more about that, I was on social media trying to connect with other people. But then I quickly realized that the people who are doing the least well are usually the ones spending the most time online. I understand why, but we also have to remember that we're getting a skewed perspective because of that.
[1:08:48] So, okay, thank you so much to both of you for joining me today. I'm just so grateful to you for coming on the podcast and sharing this incredible work that you're doing. It's helping so many people. And before you go, I want to hear what kind of projects you're up to, what kind of things you're looking forward to in the future, and where we can learn more about each of you.

[1:09:14] Katie Dettelbach: Yeah, in terms of the future, I think at some point here we'd like to get back to some kind of in-person work. We used to do some workshops where we would travel around to different cities and do some in-person workshops, or we've done some presenting at different conferences overseas. Then COVID happened and we stopped traveling for a while, and I think we're both pretty introverted, but we're feeling ready to start doing more in-person stuff again.

[1:09:47] Andrew Dettelbach: As far as current projects, we are currently updating our programs. Our system is getting improved, so that has been my big task the last few weeks. As far as everything else goes, we just keep grinding away, trying to reach more people on social media.

[1:10:06] Katie Dettelbach: Yeah. And to answer the question of where you can find out more about us, our website is www.spreadwhealth.com — that's spelled spread-W-H-E-A-L-T-H.com. On Instagram, we're @Whealth. On TikTok, it's @Whealth_, and YouTube is also @Whealth_. And on YouTube, we have a playlist specifically for hypermobility — it's a mix of exercises that are helpful, and also sometimes we make some funny videos that a lot of people resonate with.

[1:10:42] Andrew Dettelbach: I didn't even know that.

[1:10:43] Katie Dettelbach: We like to have fun. See, look, you're learning things. I run our YouTube, so he doesn't know much about it.

[1:10:50] Dr. Linda Bluestein: Oh, that's funny. I think sometimes injecting a little bit of levity is really helpful because people — including myself, by the way — can really get into that dark place of, oh my gosh, if I'm having this much difficulty now, what is it going to look like in 10 years or 20 years? And that can be really scary.

[1:11:13] Katie Dettelbach: Yeah, I think we try to incorporate humor. Some people don't always appreciate that — some people definitely want a more academic standpoint — but we try to keep a healthy balance. I saw so many patients when I worked in the hospital where, if they could have some humor, they just did well. They recovered faster. The open heart patients who were very serious and just stuck in the negativity didn't seem to recover as quickly as the ones who could laugh at something, whatever it was, no matter how dire the situation.

[1:11:56] Andrew Dettelbach: Yeah. There's even cancer patients. There's someone in my extended family — my stepbrother — going through some cancer right now, and he just has a very comedic outlook on it despite the fact that he's in a lot of pain and struggling. We often see those positive people and that comedic outlook go really far for those individuals. I'm hoping that's the case for him.

[1:12:27] Dr. Linda Bluestein: Yeah, I hope so too. We'll be thinking about him. And definitely there's so much research on humor in medicine. So I think those are great points.
[1:12:40] Well, thank you so much again to both of you for joining me.

[1:12:44] Andrew Dettelbach: You are so well known amongst the hypermobility community. Pretty much everyone we talk to knows who you are, and it's really awesome that you're willing to speak with us.

[1:12:51] Katie Dettelbach: It's great. Having read Disjointed and your chapter in there, and then getting to actually speak with you — I was like, it was my starstruck fangirl moment.

[1:13:04] Dr. Linda Bluestein: Oh, that's so sweet. I think that's the other thing — people in this space who are suffering and looking for resources, it's so important for them to see people connecting and working across different disciplines and seeing that you need a wide variety of resources. Because no one person, no one thing can really give you everything that you need. You need a lot of different resources and a lot of different things to try. So thank you so much.

[1:13:38] Andrew Dettelbach: Everything resonates with some people differently. You might resonate more with someone else than we will for them. So it makes total sense.

[1:13:46] Dr. Linda Bluestein: Absolutely. Well, thank you so much again, and we'll see you next time.
[1:13:54] That was such a great conversation with Katie and Andrew. I just love hearing their stories about how they got involved in training people to build stronger bodies, and also working on so many different components with joint hypermobility. Their programs are online, so they're really accessible. And with Katie being a nurse and Andrew having his degree in kinesiology, they bring such an interesting combination of backgrounds to their programs. It's really a cool thing that they're doing.
[1:14:23] I want to thank you for listening to this week's episode of the Bendy Bodies Podcast. If you loved what you learned, follow the Bendy Bodies Podcast on your favorite podcast player and subscribe to us on YouTube, where full video episodes are released each week at Bendy Bodies Podcast. Visit bendybodiespodcast.com to access transcripts, show notes, or leave us a message. Help spread the word about joint hypermobility and related disorders by leaving a review and sharing the podcast.
[1:14:53] If you'd like to meet with me one-on-one, check out the available options on the services page of my website at hypermobilitymd.com. You can also find me, Dr. Linda Bluestein, on Facebook, Instagram, TikTok, Twitter, or LinkedIn, all with the handle @hypermobilitymd. You can find Human Content, my producing team, @humancontentpods on TikTok and Instagram.
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